"Was the last Roman-Persian War (602-628) the biggest..." Topic

… war in Antiquity?

"In contrast to /u/PapiriusCursor, I will argue that the war of 603-628 (the war began a bit later) really was as significant as it looked, a war between two imperial powers that overshadowed anything that came before it, though obviously with the caveat that I know very little about what happened before 500.

The geopolitical implications of the war speak for themselves – war was unleashed not just on the borderlands of the two empires, but also in their very hearts. Constantinople was besieged for the first time ever by an army led by the Avar khagan in 626, whilst a Persian army looked on across the sea waiting for an opportunity to make the crossing and put an end to the ailing Roman empire. Merely two years later, Ctesiphon itself was under threat by a Roman army and the great Khusro II was overthrown by his son, an anticlimatic end to a career of unprecedented Persian military success. Powers beyond Rome and Persia were drawn in as well: the Avars with their Slavic confederates, the fractious Christian princes of the Transcaucasian mountains, and most decisively of all, the superpower of the Eurasian steppes, the Gokturk Khaganate. It was not a war between two powers of equal strength as before, but one fought by the Persians in order to destroy the Roman empire – a goal that had seemed so realistic in the 610s, and which the Romans themselves knew very well, for otherwise they would not have offered to become a vassal state of the Persians in 615, the lowest point the empire had ever sunk to.

But despite all that (or perhaps because of all the destruction caused), we still lack a good understanding of the war. The sources are poor and the best of the lot are very problematic. Persian accounts of the war can only be recovered from later Arab compilations, whilst contemporary Roman accounts leave much to be desired as well: the Easter Chronicle was far more interested in calculating the date and in events within Constantinople, saying only a little about the broader military situation, whilst the poetry of George of Pisidia is literally imperial propaganda written to glorify Heraclius, so it is hardly the sort of critical account of the war that historians want. Later sources often fill in the gaps, but it is difficult, if not impossible, to know how accurately they used their sources and how their agendas affected their telling of the earlier war…."
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It was a great war no question about it. And with iconic scenes and battles.

It definitely was one of the, if not the, greatest wars in Ancient times (at least in the top 5). Both the Persian and Byzantine (Roman) empires were all in on this war. Nothing was held back.

Both empires were in danger of extermination at different times that would have have changed the history of the world to this day. The end result was a pyrric Byzantine victory, but considering their precarious position when they began their final counter-offensive, it was one of the most decisive turnarounds in military history.

Unfortunately, both empires were so weakened by this conflict that they could not put out the effort needed to defeat the Arab Muslim attacks starting in 634 AD.

There are several recent books on Heraklios and the war (I have most, if not all of them in my personal library collection). I could try to put out a list of them.

Paul G

There are several recent books on Heraklios and the war

Which is your favorite?

I am torn between this period and Belisarius.

I have pretty much stuck with Belisarius and the Gothic Wars for the "Late Roman" period gaming. Fascinating period and campaigns, for me, anyway. Started when I bought Procopius' multi-volume history and sat down to read it.

Although I don't know a great deal about this war, the comment 'though obviously with the caveat that I know very little about what happened before 500.' doesn't really inspire confidence.

GarrisonMiniatures, I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought that…

Perhaps they mean 500BC. That would be a little more encouraging.

Well, there was that little altercation between Rome and Carthage, plus the Civil War… and is also very Western centric. I suspect some of the wars in China, etc, would deserve a mention.

Again I am not caring about the comparison. For the era of it and the period was amajor war with massive stakes. Hell it had an Roman Emperor fighting personal duels on the battlefield.

It lasted 26 years, which is longer than the First Punic War. Saw a massive siege of Constinopole, and the destruction of the Persian capital. It had awesome heroes in it, like Heraclius, or Khorsau II, or Rhahzadh and Kardarigan.

Hell the political competition saw operations venture south to Yemen and Ethiopia.

I am sure some of the Tang wars were larger, but for European standards in the era, this was a truly epic war, fought to decisive outcome.

Heraclius succeded were Hadrian. Julian, and Trajan failed. Considering the Roman-Persian antagonism, the war was the equivelant of WW2.

I would treat the 3 Punic Wars as 1 in the same way as the 100 Years War or the 30 Years War.

It could easily have seen the end of Rome and did result in the destruction of Carthage. It included one of Rome's worst military disasters. In scope it covered Italy, Sicily, Spain and North Africa. Apart from Romans and Carthaginians the armies included Celts, Iberians, Numidians… even a Spartan general.

If you treat the 3 Punic Wars as one, than you should treat the Eastern Roman Persian Wars as one, like the 100 Years War, or the 30 Years War.

Anastasian War 502-503
Iberian War 524-532
Lazic War 540-562
Caucasus War 572-591
Last Great War 602-628

Scope from the Balkans down to the Horn of Africa
Armies? Greeks, Romans, Persians, Arabs, Armenians, Various Anatolian Populations, Yemenis, Ethiopians, Turks, Avars, Bulgars, Slavs, Goths, Khazars

I admit I don't know enough about them to agree or disagree. Basically, are they separate or linked? The Punic Wars were linked – Carthage lost first, then built up forces in Spain to launch further assaults on Rome, then Hannibal hunted down, Cato 'Carthage must be destroyed' until finally Carthage destroyed. It was really all one linked series.

I believe the next GMT iteration of Commands and Colors on GMT covers some of this conflict, it is on preorder in P500.

Well, here is a great opportunity to learn something new :)

The main issues were common among the wars. Clashing spheres of influence in Middle East and Armenia, religious strife, and constant interference into each others politics. Each war was closely linked to the issues of the other one, until Khosrow II decided to end it all with a decisive victory. It backfired.

And then came the Arabs…

I've always been struck at how the battle of Nineveh in Dec. 627 was the final battle ever between soldiers speaking Greek and soldiers speaking Persian to wind up a clash that had lasted in one form or another for a thousand years. The Thousand Years' War!

piper909 Actually the Ottomans used Christian timariotes and sipahi (I am not refering to Janissaries, but to people of christian faith, serving as chrsitians in the Ottoman imperial armies), among them some greek speakers, in their very early Persian Wars. After that army reforms, and a hardening of religious attitudes eradicated that class of warriors.

Without a question Nineveh is probably the last time non-Muslim Greek speakers and non-Muslim Persian speakers clashed with each other commanded by and in the service non-Muslim Greek Speakers or non-Muslim Persian Speakers.

Arguably it was also the first christian religious "crusade" as Heraclius used the occupation of the Holy Lands by heathen Zoroastrians and their heretical "lackeys" as a rallying cry.

yes, good additional information, thanks! I was thinking about the Big Picture, I ought to have clarified -- the clash of kingdoms, empires, or leagues versus small units or individuals. Hellenic/Romano versus Iranian.

sure, that is one way to see it, though Iranian "feudalism"was characterized by a class of people that were rather independent of the king.

Sassanid Persia, like its Achmenid ancestor is a fascinating topic that too often gets lost in stereotypes or grand narratives that obstruct to much.

If I remember rightly, while Nineveh might have been the last time (non-Muslim) Persian- and Greek- speakers faced each other in battle, they did fight side by side a few years later in some of the battles during the Arab conquest of Persia.