"Hat 1/72 Prussian Landwehr sets crowdfunder" Topic

Incase anyone is interested or missed it Hat industrie has a crowdfunder on their website for Prussian Landwehr in 1/72 in 'marching' and 'action' sets.

hat72.com/Crowd2.html

Oh no! The HaT Home Page says, "Crowdfunding 1/32 Nap. British or 7YW Austrians – cancelled/refunded"

Quel dommage.

They do a poor job of advertising what they are doing. As far as I can tell, if you don't go to their site, you are left in the dark. I didn't know about the 1/32 project until it was cancelled.

I have my order in.

One of the great things about the HaT crowd funders is the bonus figures.

Metal or resin; you order two boxes you get one of each.
They're still working on the Landwehr ones but the Zulu ones are knock-outs.

I thought all plastic fans kept abreast of the relevant forums.

I'm in for ten+ boxes

Hey, Mark.

Superannuating the Airfix Landwehr too?

Well, I like the Airfix landwehr, and have three battalions painted up (32 figures each), and have enough for another 3, but I will be happy to move over to the newer HaT sculpts as the Airfix are a tad small

Why cant they finish their damned French sets!?

Because they need the money…

But the French test shots have been seen so they exist in a moulded state – I see from the website that they may make the next release.

Here's hoping.

And I went for 12 boxes for me and my local group – so here's hoping they are a step closer to production

Yes it looks as though the new French sets are progressing such a shame that they lost the French 1815 command masters.

Not to derail this thread, but can someone be so kind as to explain this whole concept of "crowdfunding"; does Hat not have the funds to do sets, or is it a case of him not being sure if it's a set he want to do, so he has others fund the project?

He's been in business near as I can tell for over 20 years as is by far the most prolific 1/72nd scale manufacturer, he's provided so many sets that as a kid I could only dream about.

That said, I wouldn't trade my Airfix Waterloo sets for anything; they take a lot of abuse, but they are iconic, specifically the highlanders and the French infantry. I remember as kid when the French infantry came out, I found them in Woolworths and nearly lost my mind, I bought ten boxes right out of the chute.

Ok, enough rambling; again, sorry for the off track question, but I'm curious is all………………

I would say that crowdfunding reflects the economic reality of trying to produce 1/72 plastic in a crowded market. 10-15 yeas ago, it was less crowded so sales were better. Nowadays, older collectors have moved on, and toy shops/FLGS have gone, so sets sell less.

So for any company, making sure that sets will sell is key

And if we support this, then maybe even more sets will be made.

But I fear the days of being spoon fed are gone

Thanks for the explanation Marc; in your opinion, outside of Hat, who else is a player in the plastics market at the present time to make the market a crowded one?

Used to be Italieri, Accurate, CTA, IMEX, Revell, Zvezda, Strelets, among others, pretty much all of them are dead in the water right now.

I will agree with your comments regarding sales; when I started selling about 20 years ago, I'd routinely sell 20 to 24 boxes of almost every new plastics release. Now, maybe 3 to 6 if I'm lucky, you are correct in that older collector customers of mine have moved on.

Your analysis on the current state of affairs is spot on I'm afraid…………….

I think that the rise of 28mm hard plastic sets from Victrix and Perry Miniatures are attracting most people starting out in the hobby, making the larger scales more affordable.

When I was starting collecting 1/72 miniatures in the mid 90's they were on sale in most toy and hobby stores which got me into this scale… but if I was starting from scatch I would be highly attracted towards collecting 28mm sets.

Here is a bit more info on the crowdfinding from the Hat website:

"Greetings to all toy soldier enthusiasts:

Introduction
Our current production line not only produces toy soldiers, it also produces sundry plastic items such as plastic containers, buckets and such. For that reason, we have decided to start a second production line which focuses on plastic toy soldiers only. As this is a dedicated line, sets on this line should be fast moving and not slowed down by other jobs. Our original line is still producing sets but if the second line moves as quickly as we think it will, we will be moving all or most of our unmade sets here.
Project #1: 1/32 Napoleonic Austrians – cancelled/refunded
Project #2: 1/72 Unmarried Zulus
Project #3: 1/32 Napoleonic British Infantry – cancelled/refunded
Project #4: 1/32 7YW Austrian Infantry Marching – cancelled/refunded
Project #5: 1/72 Prussian Landwehr – 2 sets: marching and action

Funding
Because this is a secondary line, we have decided to kick start it by crowd funding. That is, it will be funded by pledges. This way it will not be restricted financially or slowed down by the original production line. This will also give us an idea of how popular a set is. If the set does not reach a preset amount of pledges, it tells us there is not enough interest and it will stop us from making a set that isn't popular anyway. So two birds with one stone: funding and popularity.

How
At the end of the product description, there will be an estimate and a Paypal link. Simply determine the number of sets you want to pledge and input the amount. Once the product is made, they will be shipped directly to you. If we don't get enough interest after a certain amount of time, all monies will be refunded. If you change your mind at any time before production, just ask us for a full refund. Alternatively, we can immediately ship you any items we have in stock of equal value any time you request.

Notes
As this is a new project for us, we will continue to fine tune it and make changes if necessary to ensure its success. Onward ho!"

GG – by "crowded mrket" I was relating just my own experience.

When I started, the only plastics were Airfix. So French infantry was one set. Then Esci made a set. Then Italeri, then HaT made several, for different years. ACTA make a set. Zvezda did a box. Italeri remade their sets. Then Waterloo 1815 made some new sets. Each time the quality and pose choices got better and better.

So if/when HaT do release their French sets, which should have been MAC but ended up MC pre 1812, M post 1812, how many of us Naps 1/72 fans will buy big?

Same with cuirassier – except in this case, once Zvezda released their set, I stopped looking elsewhere. ANd Polish Lancers.

So in terms of "crowded market", I guess that is the direction I was looking from, where I cannot see the main players making money as quickly as before. Strelets have announced that they see set sales way down compared to the past (1,200 sets now compared to 5k previously if I recall their comments correctly). And Strelets use resin low pressure moulds, which have been criticised before.

So crowdfunding seems a good way to go. After all, whenever I see the mention of 28mm plastics, I wonder to myself – where are the Austrian cavalry? The Prussians, the Russians, the artillery sets, the limbers, the field forges, the Brunswicks, Bavarians, Wuttemburg, Cossacks, lancers etc that are made in 1/72. HaT have a HUGE range, and I guess we benefitted in the past yet it has cost him personally to keep going. People talk of Airfix as a giant – the HaT range makes Airfix look small beer. Zvezda were making marvellous sets, but where have they gone now?

So I will take a punt on crowdfunding and hope it works, and truly hope that other 1/72 fans join in. Some of the German diorama makers could purchase the entire requirement to meet the crowdfunding target in one go, but where are they now?

Marc

Hi Mark.

My German friend has asked that I advise you that a lot of German Diorama Makers needed the Prussians in
2015 – and not 2017. They have bought tin figures from ART-MINIATUREN
or SCHILLING for their Prussian troops…

I too, for my Ligny project was hoping to purchase upwards of 1000 figures but could not wait any longer.

I am a crowd funder myself but no longer need such large numbers.

A pity but I still love what Hat does,as it allows me to assemble large armies at a reasonable cost.

Best wishes,

Chris

Chris

but no longer need such large numbers.

Crowdfunding will only happen with sets that the aficionados need lots of.

Hence, hordes of UM Zulus, masses of Landwehr. It won't provide Command sets or the slightly more esoteric sets (eg say Dutch Carabiniers for Waterloo).

I would imagine that the market for 1/72 plastic figures has shrunken a bit too. The new HaT management talks about a fairly rapid release of all the backlog of planned sets.
Will this be good? Possibly not, if the demand does not support it & HaT goes "belly-up".

Marc,
Thanks for taking the time to respond, everything you said makes perfect sense and you are right, back when I was a kid, how many thousands of boxes of ho/oo scale figures did Airfix sell as they were the only ho/oo maker on the block and then Atlantic came along, then Matchbox, but they did not do Napoleonics.

I got out of the hobby for awhile and when I came back, ESCI was a big player, Revell was just getting started as well.

My cousin (Millhouse on this forum) will tell you I did a 180 and switched over to metals around 1994 or so and never looked back, my collection is all metals, although I bet Zvezda plastics painted up look great next to metal figures.

I love the Art Miniaturen, Schilling, Kennington, Newline and Hagen metals, I've got a lot of Qualitycast which are long out of production as well, plus loads of Hinton Hunt.

Thanks again for your comments……………

Interesting. Around that time I switched, but back to 1/72 plastics as the ranges were wide enough to make it possible.

And yes, I guessed that the dioramists had already moved. I was lucky enough to be invited to a game last year where the host used almost exclusively 20mm metal, with a lot of love for the Art Miniaturen range. And I could see why. But I am happy to stick with my plastics – just today ordered the steelers Poles, Brits and Scots marching to make up some new units.

I hope the landwehr happen, with enough support, as I think they are a much needed product. I was looking at my IV corp plans and realised I need 24 battalions. May have to order some more…

But I want them to succeed as I know HaT have plans for more, and I want those as well. So here's hoping

Just seen this has progressed another stage (of ten, was on 6, now 7) so the crowdfunding is rolling forward. And HaT are now talking 4 different bonus figures, so exciting (for me and Prussian fans everywhere)

hat.com

hat.com/Crowd2.html

Crowdfunding is one of those pieces of serendipity enabled by the internet. Manufacturers lessen their risk at new ventures and get funding for small projects while customers get a chance to directly influence production decisions.

Yes, hopefully it will continue progressing, it seems to be going steady so far.

Looking at the 1/32 Prussian Landwehr painted miniatures it looks like they could be used as Russian Militia also.

I like the fingerless gloves on that guy. Great attention to detail

Just quoting a post from Hat's forum member 'Brian' who has been providing some interesting ideas for future potential conversion options:

"The Prussian Landwehr have good potential for lots of conversions you could paint them as Napoleonic Russian Militia

hat.com/Othr8/Birault07P.html

or how about Austrian Landwehr with a head swap
napoleon-series.org/images/military/organization/Eder/Eder2b.jpg

or if you swap their heads with Hat's Peninsular British Infantry you get these

The 2nd Landwehr Infantry Regiment of Silesia wore stovepipe shakos at Waterloo

and if you then swap the Prussian Landwehr heads onto the Peninsular British Infantry you get Hanoverian troops for Waterloo many of which were not issued shakos and wore simple caps like the Prussian Landwehr such as these

Could be time to place or top up your order we appear to be stuck on stage 7 and as you may remember every little helps"

There is little or no evidence of the use of such caps by the Hannoverian Landwehr, other than officers. This is very probably a "wargamerism".

Maybe, bit like landwehr flags, but for some of us that doesn't make it bad. Adds variety to our toy soldier armies, and aids table top visual spotting

Landwehr flags are documented, and some still are preserved. They had no official colours, but still carried patriotic flags. But, each to his own! ;-)

Also, I did not say it was "bad" :-)Merely historically inaccurate!

Snappy – there is talk on the HaT forum of the landwehr flags being 1820 pub decorations (no, seriously). The research is from a German landwehr re-enactment group, and they are quite serious about "No Flags!"

Me, I can survive. I like it when people provide the history and evidence, so I wasn't critical of your comment, but in internet land it may have read that way. "Bad" was shorthand for "not accurate". But for me, the Hanoverian caps just "look" right because of years of misinformation.

Weren't all German tanks Tigers

As in all things, you read your sources and make your own decision! It's like grey trousers for Prussian line infantry. Everone says they had them, but the regimental history of the Colberg Regiment clearly states they were issued white linen trousers during the 1813 Summer armistice, and there is a general order issued by Von Ribbentrop that the grey woollen trousers in stock should be held back until the Autumn. The Colbergers finally received grey trousers again early in 1814 in garrison in Krefeld, after spending the worst part of the Winter in linen trousers.

If you ask a German re-enactment group a historical question, you will probably get 4 different answers for every 3 people you ask. I ran the Colberg Regiment group from the early nineties until about 2004, and commanded the infantry of the Prussian Brigade at Waterloo 2005. There will certainly be evidence of such wall-hanger flags, but the German tendency to make a universal case from limited factual evidence should not be ignored.

As always, the truth will be somewhere in between. As far as I know, however, the whole Hannoverian Landwehr Cap affair is based on a single illustration in Hoffy's picture book about the Hannoverian army, where no source for this item of clothing is given. As far as I am aware, no such original cap exists, although the Bormann Museum in Celle has a large number of artifacts from the period.

Ah ha – it must be true – there is a picture…

Kidding

Interesting on the grey trousers – white will make an interesting change

But I agree, this far removed from the actual time, it is hard to know "for fact" what was/wasn't, so good research is to be applauded. Especially when it doesn't come with too much bias

Thanks

Bear in mind that the white trousers were overalls, and worn outside the gaiters, which were officially shorter for wear with Summer trousers!

More Russian style perhaps?

No, more like British or French campaign overalls. Russian-style gaiter trousers were officially introduced in 1814, but it is unlikely many were issued before the Hundred Days campaign.

Interesting. Thanks

I was hoping "Russian style" as I could use Russian figures with headswaps. Loose style trousers may be harder. But c'est la vie

A couple of people have mentioned that crowdfunders will get some bonus figures. It seems like there will be about 4 or so special figures.

One proposed is a Landwehr Pioneer, another a Hornist (although the action set already would feature such a figure) a NCO and possibly a few more privates.

In my view I think there should be more officer choices as bonus figures, such as the mounted Landwehr officer that had been featured in the original master figure photo's.

But I am not an expert in this era so what would others like to see as special bonus figures?

White trousers would make them look more French and less Prussian, somehow…

Higher command such as generals and ADCs to enable command stands to be made – mounted and on foot please