"Prussian Napoleonic Landwehr flags" Topic

I know that info on these is fairly scarce but I have a few designs to work with to get me started.

My problem at the moment is a reference in the Osprey 'Flags of the Napoleonic Wars' vol2. It says that Silesian & East Prussian Landwehr are believed to have carried a flag with the heraldic eagle of Silesia. It then goes on to describe this as red and white checked and gold crowned.

The problem is that this is the MORAVIAN eagle, the eagle on the Silesian arms is very different.

Does anyone know if this is an error in describing the correct eagle (i.e. I should be using the black Silesian Eagle) or an error in naming the chequered eagle as Silesian ?

Basically does anyone know of any reasonably contemporary source describing these flags so that I can find which eagle to use.

Thanks

Tony of TTT

In all the few German sources where Landwehr flags are mentioned, an eagle never appears. However, frequently a flag is mentioned without any decription of it.

Typical decorations were a Landwehr cross or oak leaves, and devises.

There is only one image of a real flag I know of: that of the Landwehr batallion from the Silesian town Sagan (2nd bataillon of the 1. Schlesisches Landwehr-Infanterie-Regiment). Note that the dark black inscription had been added at a later date:

link

To be honest Oliver, that's what I thought until I read the bit in the Osprey.

Typical of an Osprey though, no source is given.

Oliver, You have done much research in the area of Prussians and can't disagree on much said. Somewhere the idea of eagles came about. Is it known where how us wargamers went with eagles for some units?
example: link

Also, if there really were not eagles used, and all the flags would not be identical/similar to the Sagen, what would these flags typically look like ( markings/colors) that you have been given an impression of from all the research( or is there a book you recommend that cover these Qs best)?

curious

MG

I haven't come accross eagles in my research (but most Landwehr flags are not described, just mentioned), so the man who introduced the eagles into the topic of irregular Prussian Landwehr, must have had access to sources I don't know – or maybe he made a visit to Glubbdubdrib to do original research ;-)

link

The 4th battalion (from Sprottau) of the 8. Schlesisches Landwehr-Infanterie-Regiment had a blue silk flag (once in the Berlin Zeughaus, now lost), 88 cm high abd 93 cm long, on both sides a white wreath was sewn on it. Inscriptions "MIT GOTT FÜR KÖNIG UND VATERLAND", on the other side "SPROTTAU – LANDWEHRBATAILLON". Black staff, instead of a spearhead a wooden wreath of oak leaves.

The 2nd battalion (from Anklam) of the 2. Kurmärkisches Landwehr-Infanterie-Regiment had a flag "of black colour and bore the white cross with the motto of the Landwehr".

The 4th (later 3rd) battalion (from Wriezen) of the 2. Kurmärkisches Landwehr-Infanterie-Regiment had a flag from red cashmere. Its border had a black decoration "à la grec". In the centre a big white cross with the inscription "Mit Gott für König und Vaterland". The cross was surrounded by a wreath of oak leaves, made from black-green velvet.

These are all descriptions of Landwehr flags I know of.

Theoretically, every design is possible, as these flags were made privately on the initiative and to the fancy of the town (or local grops of ladies) the Landwehr men came from. Not all battalions received such private flags, and they were soon forbidden to be carried, as handing out flags was the privilege of the Prussian king.

Thanks for that link MG. Having been a bit disappointed with some of Warflags stuff I didn't look there as I might previously have done. At least someone else has noticed the eagle discrepancy.

Problem still remains – where do those 'descriptions' it mentions come from ?

At least those are descriptions I can work from/interpret Oliver.

Do you have any more from other parts of Prussia ? Alternatively any Internet source where they are reproduced (text sources are likely to be in Germany and not accessible to me).

A possible source for these Landwehr "eagle flags" are generic contemporary prints of battles, the Prussians being identified by (incorrect) flags with Prussian eagles on them:

The descriptions of Landwehr flags I posted above are all I know of, all are translations from decriptions in German. I don't know any images of Landwehr flags except the one of Sagan.

Try here- link

Prussian Landwehr did not carry those flags in battle – in case a wargamer still like to go fantasy in that point he can let run his immagination riot and pick and chose whatever he wants

As von Winterfeldt suggests I did the fantasy thing using GMB flags.

[URL=http://s219.photobucket.com/user/tjm3/media/Saulute%202015/Plancenoit/IMG_8087.jpg.html]

Yes without any doubt flags, even if fantasy enhance the appearance of a unit (I still won't do it, but everyone to his own)
OK but I would chose a better contrast – like a black eagle on a yellow flag (ok looks very Austrian I agree) – but there must be something more striking – for Silesia – like a red eagle on a white ground?
As Oliver mentioned often those flags were donations of towns, so look up towns and see town colours – or coat d'armes and then make a striking flag.

What about a Landwehr cross on a field of the regional facing colour, eg yellow for Silesia, light blue for Kurmark, etc? – consistent with the convention in the line.

What I can't figure out is why some units had flags and others were denied them. A flag is either useful as a rallying point, position marker, etc, or it's not; so what did flagless units rally on, etc, absent a flag?

The units of the regular army received their flags and standards from the king, whose sole privilege it was to grant them.

The king promised the Landwehr regiments (and also the new reserve regiments of 1813) flags, if they would prove worthy of them. These were distributed, due to some problems with the flag painter in Berlin, as late as after the 1815 campaign.

The Landwehr flags were not acknowledged by the king as official flags and therefore forbidden to be carried.

In the absence of a flag, there would always be still the colour section, the colour bearer carrying his musket high on the shoulder instead.

One point I thought years ago but never got a yes or even a nibble was why didn't Prussians use fanions? Seems the French did, colonial Americans did.

The king promised the Landwehr regiments (and also the new reserve regiments of 1813) flags, if they would prove worthy of them. These were distributed, due to some problems with the flag painter in Berlin, as late as after the 1815 campaign.

Do we know what these looked like?

It's interesting that 2 years or so ago GMB offered these blue flags pictured above as Silesian Landwehr flags, they have since revised them to something like what Von Winterfedt suggested.

No fanions in the Prussian army – and of course no rule concerning the Prussian army without exception: in 1813, the East Prussian Landwehr battalion from Königsberg had fanions, but their use was soon forbidden.

The 1815 flags looked all the same, like this, except that the shield in the middle was orange, the band with the devise blue, and all other painting (including the wreaths) golden: