Slappy | 27 Dec 2016 4:12 a.m. PST |
Couple of quick questions. I am new to the rules set, so I hope I am not trudging over old ground, if so I apologise in advance. 1. Would it be feasible to use 1 or a combo of the rules as ancients rules? 2. Could the rules be adapted to later periods? 3. Any gripes or issues with gameplay? Thanks |
advocate | 27 Dec 2016 4:56 a.m. PST |
If you are going for one set, probably Dragon Rampant if you want to include chariots or elephants. Can't think of a reason not to use it for 'Ancients'. Yes you could adapt it to later periods, but you might be better looking at 'The Men Who Would Be King' for that. Gripes? Playing the scenarios one-on-one – as it was designed to be played – the activation system is OK. If you want to scale up, or have multi-player games, failing to activate even a single unit can be a real pain, especially if it happens more than once in a row. There are probably a few things you could do about it: test for each unit until the first success, then keep going until you next fail, or you have tried to activate all your units would be one example. |
wminsing | 27 Dec 2016 6:14 a.m. PST |
1. I'd use Dragon Rampant (for the ability to model Chariots and Elephants as advocate says) and just ignore the fantasy abilities and so forth. If your gaming doesn't include these two then straight Lion Rampant would work. 2. How much later? I think they'd work ok right up through the Renaissance but after that you probably want to look for something else. 3. The activation issue can make things a bit swingy; having two bad turns in a row can be disheartening. But others consider that a feature and not a bug! -Will |
OneHuaiTicket | 27 Dec 2016 7:08 a.m. PST |
I use Lion Rampant for Ancients, in particular the Trojan War. The Chariots Rampant issue from WSS has some nice ideas, but all it really involves is swapping mounted troop units for multi-wound chariots, tracked with either dice or chariot runners, then pick and choose units according to what they do, not what they are named. Really fun system. |
robert piepenbrink | 27 Dec 2016 7:49 a.m. PST |
I'm with the consensus--nice system and good through 16th, maybe 17th Centuries. But they're serious about the boundaries. It's a great system for solo play and good for two players, but it would need major surgery if you wanted more than one player a side or more than six units per side. Next time out, I'm going to try cannon as wizardlings whose three spells are Power Bolt, Banish Fear and Befuddle Thee. |
CATenWolde | 27 Dec 2016 8:07 a.m. PST |
Dragon Rampant has more options than Lion Rampant, and you can emulate LR with DR – but the original LR has more historical boasts and such. I would wait for a 1/3 off sale and get both, and add a third for free shipping. ;) I'm not sure how well the system would do for more formal battles, but I think it could be adopted fairly easily for any raid or skirmish type action in any ancients period. We stopped using tests for normal moves, and only use them for charges and morale checks – speeds up play tremendously. Cheers, Christopher |
Jamesonsafari | 27 Dec 2016 9:11 a.m. PST |
There are ancient variants of Lion Rampant available on line link link
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Irish Marine | 27 Dec 2016 9:24 a.m. PST |
So would Lion Rampant work for my Romans and Celts? I have at least two 80 man centries and about 250 Celts. |
wminsing | 27 Dec 2016 9:26 a.m. PST |
Also for larger games (more than one player a side) it's a very easy; just have each player's banner/brigade/whatever be self-contained in terms of command failure. That means a blown test ends that players turn, but other players on his side can still go. Might also help to alternate between sides. I've seen games handle 6 or 8 players easily that way. -Will |
USAFpilot | 27 Dec 2016 9:46 a.m. PST |
These are skirmish type games with figures based one per base. No formations as such. I don't get much of a period feel one way or another; though that is true of most games as rules are just a set of mathematical algorisms. |
The Beast Rampant | 27 Dec 2016 10:06 a.m. PST |
2. Could the rules be adapted to later periods? Boardgame Geek's forums have several good mods for later periods, such as WotR or Elizabethan. They inspired me to build my LR forces for the late 15th C. Plus, "Pikeman's Lament" will be out in a month. |
kallman | 27 Dec 2016 12:04 p.m. PST |
I disagree that Lion Rampant and Dragon Rampant do not handle more than two players. I've run and been in games with four to six players and each game was a blast. Also as someone mentioned those of us who enjoy the system do not find the failed activation a weakness in the game. It is what adds that fog of war element that keeps things interesting. Of course there are a number of tweaks that one can do if your group finds the failed activation an issue. Personally it is one of the aspects of the game I find wonderful. After all your troops don't always do what you want them to do. Also agree that both Lion and Dragon Rampant can be used for Ancients or as far up as 16th century. 17th may be pushing it bit. But again the main framework of the game is easy to tweak to meet your needs. I also have All the Kings Men and while it has the basic framework of Lion Rampant it has far more going to reflect 19th century small actions. |
Jlundberg | 27 Dec 2016 1:02 p.m. PST |
I have run WOTR games with 6+ players. One thing that I did do was to give each player a pair of activation reroll tokens. IN some of my playtesting for my convention games I had one side be contacted in their starting locations since they had been unable to perform a single activation in 4 turns |
TKindred | 27 Dec 2016 1:10 p.m. PST |
The easiest way to use LR (or Basic Impetus) as a multi-player game is to simply divide the gaming table into areas equal to the number of players, and have each player command his/her own retinue. Simple as that. In a sense, it isn't as far off of reality as folks might think. A player fights with the player across from him, and the game becomes one of several min-games going on side by side. Certainly, a player can cross over outside of his/her territory and engage another player, but that's likely to be a rare occurrence since he/she has to deal with their own opponent directly to their front. I ran a Basic Impetus game with 6 players, each with their own army, and the table divided into right/center/left areas, and let them have at it. Worked out great, and there's no reason that LR cannot work just as well in a similar manner. |
Marshal Mark | 27 Dec 2016 1:54 p.m. PST |
Would it be feasible to use 1 or a combo of the rules as ancients rules? Probably best to use DR as they are more flexible and generic in terms of troop definitions. LR are specifically aimed at the medieval period. Could the rules be adapted to later periods? DR can be used for up to late medieval / early renaissance without any adaptations or rules changes required. As they are a generic set (e.g no actual specific weapons are given, for example missile troops are heavy or light missiles), they would probably work well enough for later periods also. Any gripes or issues with gameplay? Some people (including myself) don't like the lack of control inherent in the activation system. On average you only get to activate around two units each turn (and this doesn't scale up with the size of your force) and you have a relatively high chance (between 25% and 42%) of activating no units on your turn. Many other games restrict how many units you can activate (representing command and control / friction / fog of war) but most such games give you some control over activations (for example allowing a limited number of activations each turn, allowing you to choose which units you activate). In DR you get virtually no such control. I get the impression that a lot of groups don't use the activation rules as written – for example allowing some rerolls or more failed activations before a turnover. Another issue some people don't like is the fact that a unit fights at full strength until it has lost half its figures. Then it fights at half strength until it is wiped out. |
EvilBen | 27 Dec 2016 2:30 p.m. PST |
I quite like the activation system as written, and find that short turns with a constant back-and-forth between players works for the scale of game, and contributes to tension in completing scenario victory conditions. And I say that as someone who is usually on the receiving end of repeated failures to do anything… It's certainly worth playing with a few times to see if you actually like it. But it does make it more big skirmishes than set-piece battles. I haven't actually played it with ancients, but it did amuse me to notice that the sergeants/yeomen/bidowers (or heavy foot/light foot/scouts in Dragon Rampant) are basically the same as the troop types from the start of Asclepiodotus (and cited by Barker in the Airfix guide): that is, hoplites/peltasts/psiloi; and that knights/sergeants/mounted yeomen map onto cataphracts/elaphroi/akrobalistai. So if you're used to thinking in WRG terms, working out troop types shouldn't be hard… |
robert piepenbrink | 27 Dec 2016 4:53 p.m. PST |
I quite like the activation system as written--but I am mostly a solo player, which changes the perspective. It's the "boasts" section I quietly ignore. When your enemies flee before you, your bard will invent any boast you like, and backdate it. When you flee from your enemies, your boasts WILL be remembered--which is why you shouldn't make them. Call it the Joe Hooker Rule. |
krisgibbo | 28 Dec 2016 9:16 a.m. PST |
1. Yes, there's no reason at all it can't be used for ancient games. We've used fantasy and historical figures that would otherwise never see the light of day. Recent games featured warring medieval Italian families intent on mischief and a Greek force where hoplite phalanxes and peltasts took the field alongside a Cyclops and a Minotaur. Arab, Norse and Celtic forces have also been fielded with similar additions. I can't see why these mythological creatures could not be replaced with elephants and scythed chariots. 2. We did use the rules to game colonial skirmishes prior to MWWBK and this worked fine. MWWBK works better and I'm looking at recent releases to fill in the gap ( ECW and AWI). 3. We frequently play two players per side and up to 48 points. The games usually last a couple of hours and have all been close contests. The turn system forces players to play like they may not be able to rely on all of their troops to do exactly what they want when they want them to do it, and keeps players eyes on the table. So my handgunners are caught flat footed by sword and shield men one week ( wet powder?), and the next week Sinbad and his crew slay a Celtic deity ( Must've been the shiny waistcoat Sinbad). As the man says, it's a game and not a simulation. My two cents worth. |
ether drake | 24 Jan 2017 2:19 a.m. PST |
I've been looking at these rules and wondering what relatively historical use could be made of these in the classical period short of merely playing a skirmish with surface ancient characteristics. There doesn't seem much scope for heavy infantry, but light infantry seems legitimate. During the Second Punic War in Italy there were raids by Hannibal's Numidians into Roman territory. For Rome's conquest of Iberia I could imagine raids by Iberians etc. on Romans, though the Romans would usually be on the back foot. Is there anything from the Hellenistic side? |
EvilBen | 25 Jan 2017 9:27 a.m. PST |
There was lots of low-level conflict in the Hellenistic period (and earlier), which would provide historical inspiration for this sort of game. There's a really useful article (at least I thought it was) on this by John Ma ('Fighting poleis of the hellenistic world') in Van Wees ed. War and Violence in Ancient Greece. Actually most of the scenarios in Lion Rampant would translate pretty well to ancient Greece without modification. And I think you could use some heavy infantry with no qualms. |
TKindred | 27 Jan 2017 1:00 p.m. PST |
Especially lots of "Sea Raiders" scenarios. Greeks raiding a Persian coastal village or fortified position, Egyptian Marines raiding along the coast, The Trojan War, Roman Marines attacking Gauls, Britons, Carthaginians, Spanish, etc. Several nice period model ships and boats available too, for background props, landing vessels, etc. For heavy infantry you can use the "Foot Sergeants" since they can form Schiltron, and you can call it "shieldwall", use them as Hoplites, etc. All sorts of possibilities there. |