"British two deckers" Topic

Scale 1:900

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The mizzenmast doesn't look quite right to me.

This way it works for the whole XVIII not only trafalgar

besides it's a matter of a few extra spars or a shorter one, I'm not as puritan as you ;)

Understand what you say but they still don't look right to me.

Yep – the lateens on the mizzen are much too high. Look at that posted profile. That is the proper sail plan for the middle part of the 18th century.

glued it high so I could wound the thread more easily aroud the flagpole in fact

If you're happy with them that's great, and there's not a lot of point in critique you're not looking for. I would happily play with those, but the lateens way up in the air kind of freak me out, too.

Those lateens weren't for propulsion, but were constantly manipulated to interact with the forces from the rudder to get more efficient directional control (more than just steering). How are you supposed to work with sails fifty feet above your head? You need to get to that boom.

But if you're having fun it's academic.

Having learned this I can glue the said lanteen after the wire and it its correct height in the future ships, the work is the same in fact.

Lateens on square rig ships were for the most part long gone by Trafalgar.

Read only if interested in the rivet and bolt kind of details of the sailing age. Otherwise, skip to next thread. :)

By the 1750's the front part of the sail was being trimmed off as it interfered with the wind gathering of the main course, though the lateen yard itself remained intact as a spare for the larger main and fore yards.

By the late 1770's, although some full lateen sails survived, on other ships the lateen yard had the front clipped off, and in more advanced rigs, the remainder of the lateen sail had become a spanker with a spanker gaff and a spanker boom.

By the turn of the century and Trafalgar spankers were the norm. Also the steeve (upward angle) of the bowsprit was greatly reduced by the time of Trafalgar

Those lateens weren't for propulsion, but were constantly manipulated to interact with the forces from the rudder to get more efficient directional control (more than just steering).

Indeed. For those interested (and there probably are not too many) the lateens (and double lateens on galleons with Bonaventure mizzens ) developed as a method of counteracting the effect of a foremast on the center of moment on a ship that is reaching or hauling. Without lateens the mainmast acts as a fulcrum and the force on the foremast tends to torque or blow the ship's bows away from the direction of travel requiring heavy rudder to correct.

As rigs evolved from the 16th century, the foremast moved aft somewhat towards the center of the ship, and the torque was reduced, and Bonaventures disappeared. As they continued to evolve it was found that smaller square rig sails on the mizzen produced the same counter-torque and more propulsive power, so they gradually replaced the lateen altogether. The spanker was retained to contribute to propulsion on a reach and to reduce work on the rudder at all sailing points.

Hi noigrim

I read your blog and your Trafalgar project looks really intereting. Just a few notes on flags.

When the French had white ensigns, it was normal for the British to use red ensigns on all ships in fleet actions.

After the French changed to the tricolour in 1794, it was normal for the British to use white ensigns on all ships in fleet actions (e.g. Nile and Trafalgar).

You seem to have a mixture of red and white ensigns on your models which is probably not historical for most fleet actions.

If you want to do Trafalgar, you can add a Union Jack suspended from the fore-topgallant stay of all Nelson's ships.

Also due to changes in rigging as Virtualscratchbuilder mentions, the "flagpole" or ensign staff got in the way of the mizzen sail, so it stopped being used and the ensign was flown from the peak of the gaff.

Hope this was helpful.

A bit too late

For the Royal Navy Red, Blue, and White ensigns depended on whether the commanding admiral was an Admiral of the Re/Blue/White squadrons, or whether the ship was sailing on independent service. It didn't matter what ensigns the French/Spanish/Dutch/Americans were flying. Also just a quick note, the Royal Navy started dropping the lateen sail on the mizzen during the AWI.

The three flags were simultaneously on use, depending of which of tve three squadrons the ship belonged to link

The squadrons depended on the admirals antiquity then?

For the Royal Navy Red, Blue, and White ensigns depended on whether the commanding admiral was an Admiral of the Re/Blue/White squadrons, or whether the ship was sailing on independent service.

Perfectly correct, BUT the commanding admiral could and very often did issue special orders about the ensign to be flown for fleet actions, this was the ensign colour that was most different from that of the enemy and thus avoid confusion in the heat of battle.

The squadrons depended on the admirals antiquity then?

The the colour of the ensign worn depended on the squadron to which the commanding admiral belonged. E.g. Ships commanded by a Vice Admiral of the Blue would wear the the blue ensign (unless ordered otherwise). Ships on independant command would wear the red ensign.

@jowady

It didn't matter what ensigns the French/Spanish/Dutch/Americans were flying.

I believe it did matter!

As an example, at the Nile, Nelson was Rear Admiral of the Blue but he ordered his ships to wear the White Ensign, which was different enough from the French tricolour that it would not be mistaken.

This gives a breakdown of the red, white and blue squadrons of the RN:

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