"Honey?" Topic

Is the word Honey offensive?

On a wargames forum, it is a way to talk down to someone.

Like most things, it depends on context.

No, it is food.

In the southern US, older gents commonly refer to younger women of the female persuasion as honey. Some find it offensive, some don't. The older gents typically don't give a rat's posterior if anyone gets offended or not.

Personally, I like honey mixed with peanut butter and spread on toast, washed down with ice cold chocolate milk. mmm ….I gotta go.

No, in a wargames context, and we are after all on a wargames forum, it is the name of a tank in the desert during WW2. In another context, as TGerritsen said it depends,but if in any doubt probably better to err on the side of caution and not use it.

Only if she says so….

Being southern, I can say it's the exact opposite. Women use it to refer to men, who never seem to mind

Also try mixing Karo syrup with your peanut butter, it's even better

thorr666 – interesting, I think I've got some Karo in the pantry…and I've got a good idea what's for breakfast tomorrow.

I don't think the Brits were trying to be offensive calling the tank that name.

No. Words are not offensive, they can't be.

"If you are pained by external things it is not they that disturb you, but your own judgement of them."

Marcus Aurelius, Meditations, book 8.

The Site that Must Not be Named said she is a dame.
That excuses her. I think.

I thought you all were talking about the British nickname for the M3. (3 hours late but still had to say it.)

It does presume familiarity, given that "the grave sin of informality" is frowned upon by some. It's an attitude I associate with aristocracy & old money, but I have seen it plenty of times (although I am neither).

Oh, now I understand this thread.

For whatever it is worth, I ask that you let them both out. Strikes me as wrong to be Dawghoused for being offensive in a thread that doesn't exist.

"On a wargames forum, it is a way to talk down to someone"

And who made that rule to apply to ALL wargames fora ?

Certainly on this forum you can, Bill. But I daresay
your writ, though large, does not extend to all wargame
fora…

I hereby give all TMP members, past, present, and future to call me "Honey" in any context on this forum. I do not wish anyone to be Dawghoused on account of calling me Honey.

Like Stryker said, it is a common and innocuous saying in the South. In Louisiana you'll hear it a lot. Doesn't mean anything bad, but not everyone takes it the same way.

It's all in the eye of the beholder. Depends on the woman, her mood, time of day, planetary alignment … Then again, these days everything is seen as being offensive and taken with the worst intentions imaginable, no matter what you say or now innocently you say it. Silence doesn't help either. That can be offensive to some too!

Dan

"On a wargames forum, it is a way to talk down to someone"

So are words to the effect "you never served so my opinion beats yours" but they get a bye…. :)

I was first called 'honey' by middle aged women while I was in Kentucky. I loved it! Still do!

They did not listen, they did not know how. Perhaps they'll listen now?

Whwn not refering to the food. 99% of the time it's a term of affection even if used by someone you just met. I have heard it used in a conflict situation where clearly it was dripping with sarcasem.

It seems similar to "son" coming from another male who might be neither family nor older.

Such slights simply decrease my respect for those who utter them.

What everyone is missing about this whole topic is the appropriation of Bee culture. How dare we steal the term for the fruits of their hard work. Just more oppression of those deemed as lesser beings. I demand equal rights for Bees. When do we want it? Now, Now, Now!

OK, I now end my stinging rebuke.

I missed the thread that apparently precipitated this,so can't comment on that.

Optional raises an interesting point,reminding me of something that T.A.Shippey says about "The Hobbit",something that as an American, I never noticed: none of the characters sound particularly "English"--until we meet Smaug,but he talks,initially at least,like an English aristocrat of the Victorian or Edwardian era: "You seem familiar with my name. . .",when being "familiar" with someone you didn't know was looked upon as bad behavior."Smaug might be the elderly colonel on the train, approached by someone to whom he hadn't been properly introduced".

Smaug's comeback,then,becomes amusing: ". . .but I don't seem to remember smelling you before". The rest of the conversation,seen in this light,gets more and more hilarious,with the dragon using all the verbal techniques of the English upper classes,over-politeness,circumlocution, compliments that mean the opposite of what they say.

As others have said here,context is everything. "Familiarity", whether in the name of egalitarianism, "keeping it real", or just cool informality, is a phenomenon of the last 30-40 years or so. As caregiver for my mother in the past five years, I saw examples of various nurses,doctors,and others in the caregiving sector trying to put older people at ease with "honey" and other terms of endearment,especially addressing them by first name. This was almost always by people in their 20's or 30's,for whom it was second nature. Actually,it often had the opposite effect, as older people who were becoming less and less able,were also feeling their dignity affected. Mostly,they tolerate this.

But I admit that I did,on occasion, point out,as gently as possible, that for instance,to a woman who came of age in the forties,say, for a man not a family member or beau,especially one she didn't know, calling her "Honey" would likely earn a slap, or at the very least a hard stare.

As for a younger,addressing an older person by their first name, well. . .

Where I live (Northeast TN/Southwest VA), its used all the time, but only women say it to men or to other women. I never heard a man say it to a woman, at least in public.

This place gets more ridiculous by the day. This is perhaps the silliest reason to DH somebody that I have seen so far.

On a wargames forum, it is a way to talk down to someone.

I agree, based on the situation that the individual was using the word. To talk down to people. Being condescending, demeaning, etc., … The thread that the offense occurred has been removed by Bill [I guess ?, AFAIK]. It was getting pretty argumentative, etc., … Bill even threatened me with punitive action.[No real surprise there … I may have deserved it …] But … as I well know … you mess with the Bull [or Bill] you get the horns …

Really?? ,Dh'ing a person for that ?
That is laughable -almost as laughable as the person that complained about it.

With all of the comments and derogatory language thrown around here -that is crossing the line ?
And it is funnier when you go to see what was said and the link is gone .
So that person is "serving time " for an offence that no one can verify happened(because the evidence was wiped away ) or see evidence of ?

@Hafen von Schlockenberg – interesting assessment though your experience here differs from mine. To the conversations with Smaug always felt like they were temporal boundaries rather than, say, Class. I'd agree that Smaug comes over as the C19th/C20th aristo, but Bilbo comes across more as being from the C16th/17th, to my mind at least. Which would fit well with the idea that he and the others don't "feel" English to an American- that period being the point of divergence if you will of American-English and English-English.

"As for a younger,addressing an older person by their first name, well. . ."
We're definitaly talking some cultural differnces here then. I'm from Lancashire in the NW England, and our dialect doesn't even permit such airs and graces! There was even a song about it.
Across the region various words are used (and it varies almost from street to street which is pre-eminent) as terms of address- Chuck, Dear, Honey, Chick/ Lad or Lass as appropriate, petal, Love (pronounced Luv, rather than Lurve), and more besides.

They will be readily deployed regardless of how well the addresser knows the addressee, they are not generally considered offensive or a way of talking down to somone, they are even now (though it is perhaps a little old fashioned) to precced them with the words "Eh up" and follwed with "Yereet?" ( An English translation would perhaps be "Greetings [potential] Friend, How are thee?" ) . It is in keeping with the old Lancastrian self image of being warm and welcoming and more than happy to put the kettle on for anyone.

Not to say that such words cant be used offensively, its just that use of them isn't neccesarily offensive.

Just so everyone is forewarned, I use the term "Sunshine" when I want to talk down to someone. If I ever use it, I'll be ok with going into the slammer.

Come on … even on the internet, one usually can tell when words are used in a condescending, superior, demeaning, etc. manner. If you had read the thread in question, it was pretty clear what was being said. By who and why, etc., … It quickly became all the usual "suspects" aligning on the left, middle, and right sides of the border. And the usual verbal volley ball ensued and continued without relief. Until Bill ["wisely" ?] "nuked" it …

I think you the word you were looking for was patronizing .
And so what ? You are really trying to tell us that in that thread THAT was what you objected to ?and felt insulted by ?
perhaps you should get thicker skin or a more realistic view of what people post here and elsewhere.
Also remember – words can only hurt you if you allow them to. If someone that you have never met (I am guessing ) tries to talk down to you -they can only succeed if you accept that they are in some way a superior to you .

I personally don't care about that person and find some of their views childish in their naivete but really ? for using the word Honey ??

> Also remember – words can only hurt you if you allow them to. If someone that you have never met (I am guessing ) tries to talk down to you -they can only succeed if you accept that they are in some way a superior to you .

Incorrect, you CAN turn the other cheek so to speak but if OTHERS feel you let them get away with it then it looks bad.

"you never served so my opinion beats yours"

My uncle had his tongue shot off in WW2 & you know, he never spoke about it.

I think you the word you were looking for was patronizing .
And so what ? You are really trying to tell us that in that thread THAT was what you objected to ?and felt insulted by ?

Me ?!? I was not called Honey … So Bill made that call, he is he Ed. However, the way it was used on another poster(s) here, I did see it as it was in a negative manner. So yes, I guess one could say demeaning, condescending, and even patronizing. But again, it was not directed me, AFAIK ? However, if you or anyone else here want's to call me Honey … well … knock yourself out !

I'm not a fan of Chris Vermont, or more so her views, but really calling someone "Honey" really isn't bad. Seems a bit ridiculous to "house" someone for that long if at all…

I didn't know Chris was female ? I always don't agree with her either. But not everybody agrees with me so … I get that …

The Site that Must Not be Named said she is a dame.
That excuses her. I think.

She's a Knight !?!??!?

Legion :Sorry I thought it was directed to you -but now I remember in was Deadflies (or something like that )

Dynaman,
So you are concerned about looking bad if third parties are offended by speech that is not directed towards them and even if you don't take offense or care ?

And you don't see where that is a bad thing ?

Hmm.. Otto – familiar means also knowing of, as well as being more intimate than is appropriate. Smaug was saying 'you seem to know me, but I don't recall 'smelling' (or meeting) you before'. No implication of undue familiarity in the intrusive sense.

And David Manley – well said sir.

Legion :Sorry I thought it was directed to you -but now I remember in was Deadflies (or something like that )

Yes it was Deales … But many other things have been directed at me … So it was an honest mistake …

"On a wargames forum, it is a way to talk down to someone"

So are words to the effect "you never served so my opinion beats yours" but they get a bye….

I'm probably going start a firestorm … but I think it is worth mentioning. Sometimes some may feel I'm being patronizing or talking down to them, etc., if I go into too much detail about some military topics/subjects, etc. That I personally have been trained in and experienced.

This actually being a wargame site, some of that information may be of some worth or interest to some. If they have asked about a certain military subject or were talking about a topic I'm probably "(well) versed in". I'd think other Vets would think the same.

So in some cases I most likely do know more about those topics, than some others here. But as I have often said, everyone can post their opinion. But in some cases, my or other Vets knowledge, training and experiences may be more "valid" than some who were civilians, etc., … And never had that training and experiences, etc. …

Then some get upset that I even mention my service. But it is only to give my post some veracity or hold more weight than some who have not had that training and experiences, etc. And I could give a "rats bum" whether you know about my military service, etc. But I always see someone's training and experience on a subject that I don't to be of more worth to me.

Like someone who is an IT/computer guru says something about that. I'll take and respect that opinion more than someone who like me who just barely can use a computer.

That is also why I take my car to a mechanic or I go to a medical doctor. Those are some of the many, many skills I don't possess.

So by me stating something about say, Combined Arms ops, Mech/Armor warfare, dismounted patrolling, air operations. Jungle, desert, winter, MOUT ops, or even being an Atomic Demo Missions Officer, etc., … I'd say probably my opinion may be more "well informed" than others who don't have that training and those experiences.

So if anything I post upsets someone please let me know. Or hit the [!], I'm quite well "versed" on/in the Dog House on TMP. But … That does not mean I'll always agree with you. However, that is an option, etc., …

> So you are concerned about looking bad if third parties are offended by speech that is not directed towards them and even if you don't take offense or care ?

Not what I said, terms have power even if the person in particular does not take offense, or chooses not to let it show that they take offense. A certain word, starting with N, is offensive no matter if the recipient cares or not.

Honey in particular is an edge case, in many cases it is meant in a condescending manner while in many others it is just a term with no more meaning then "He" or "She" would be.

"you CAN turn the other cheek so to speak but if OTHERS feel you let them get away with it then it looks bad"
Perhaps not what you meant ,but it is what you said .

Actually that is not a god analogy at all- That word (the famed N word ) is routinely used by segments of 13% of the population to themselves and others – Yet they do not take offence to it when used by themselves
So obviously it matters if the recipient cares or not.

Context matters.

I can call my friends things that they'd knife another guy for.

Other friends, that sort of talk never ever comes up.

It all depends on your "audience" … Friends, family, at work, faceless masses on the net, etc., etc. …

Seriously? Given some of the 'terms of endearment' that go unpunished here?

Granted my perspective is influenced by 1980's 'industrial' England (yes, that long ago, when we had industry here). As a callow 20-something Southerner, when it was commonplace to be referred to as 'Luv', 'Honey' or 'M'duck' by women old enough to be my mother. And some of the 'initiation ceremonies' on the shop-floor do not bear repeating on a 'family-friendly' site.

BUT context is everything – I'm sure there a lot of southern belles I'd be delighted to call me 'Honey' but it could be considered patronising if used by a middle-aged gamer trying to denigrate my point if view.

But life's too short to worry about idiots like that.

BUT context is everything – I'm sure there a lot of southern belles I'd be delighted to call me 'Honey' but it could be considered patronising if used by a middle-aged gamer trying to denigrate my point if view.