"Peacetime vs Wartime Strength?" Topic
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Achtung Minen | 12 Dec 2016 10:30 a.m. PST |
I read recently that the early 1980's British Mech Squad was normally 8 dismounts, but that this would have been increased to 10 men in the event of a major conflict in Europe. Interestingly enough, this is something Team Yankee gets spot on, while Force on Force: Cold War Gone Hot and a few others miss! So what other squad strengths were actually reduced-strength "peacetime" numbers? I'd suspect the answer might lie in the carrying capacity of the AFV… here is what I have for real, historical squad strengths in the early 80's: Bundeswehr Panzergrenadier: 7 dismounts (reduced to 6 by the end of the decade because of the Marder II's space limitation). Interestingly, this is often given as one less than these values, with 3 crew remaining in the Marder I or II, but other research has indicated to me that the vehicle commander actually dismounted to fight with the troops on foot. Due to the space limitations of the Marder, I doubt this organization would have been increased during wartime. Nationale Volksarmee Mot.Schützen: 7 dismounts, which could fight as one group or could break up into an assault team (squad leader, AT specialist and assistant and RPK gunner) and a support team (assistant squad leader, RPK gunner, rifleman). US Mech Infantry: Some research suggests 9 dismounts, including the squad leader an M-60 GPMG gunner and assistant (pre-1984), two rifle grenadiers and four riflemen. FM 7-7 (1985), however, indicates that a "full strength" (in their words) dismounted squad is 7 men (squad leader, assistant squad leader, two M249 gunners, a rifleman/marksman who could act as the assistant for a platoon M-60, a rifleman grenadier and an AT specialist with a M47 Dragon). I am not sure if this smaller organization also applies to US squads prior to 1985, however. Some wargames give the squad as 9 men (squad leader and two fireteams of four, each with an M249, rifle grenadier and two riflemen, although I am having trouble finding this referenced in field manuals). Soviet Motostrelki Section: This seems to have the least firepower of all major combatants. The dismounted squad consisted of 7 men, including a squad leader, an RPK gunner, four riflemen and an AT specialist with nothing but an RPG-7 and a pistol. With each of these formations, the squad leader could have remained mounted (depending on the tactical situation), which reduces the squad further. The British on the other hand didn't fight from their vehicles, so their squad leader would have usually been in the field, making the 10-man wartime British squad the largest by far. What other organizations would have seen a small boost in manpower in the event of a major war? |
Jozis Tin Man | 12 Dec 2016 10:52 a.m. PST |
I would think the boost in manpower would be theoretical and not actually happen in reality. If the baloon went up with say, 48 hours notice, NATO units forward deployed to Germany would not have time to incorporate a couple extra guys per squad. Follow on forces from CONUS might theoretically have the extra guys, but most units of those units were understrength in peacetime. I think a conventional war on the central front would have been a very much come as you are affair. But, I am not familiar with UK practice, nor Dutch, Belgian, or German. Interested to hear where this conversation goes, great question! |
Saber6 | 12 Dec 2016 10:58 a.m. PST |
Most of the squad size change was driven by changes in doctrine and equipment. Bradleys had few seats for dismounts. Also the number of companies increased (from 3 to 4) in Infantry battalions. Not being able to draft more infantry, the bodies needed to come from somewhere. Most units in the First Gulf War were brought up to 150%. |
Just Jack | 12 Dec 2016 11:12 a.m. PST |
Maybe a very small boost in manpower, as all the guys you had other places (working at the barracks, motor pool, or chowhall, handing basketballs out at the gym, manning the rifle range, minor offenses let out of the brig, minor issues come out of the hospital/off of quarters, etc…) would come back to you right away. But I'm with Tin Man, there's not time for guys to come in from anywhere else, much less be organized and integrated into units. "Most units in the First Gulf War were brought up to 150%." Yeah, but they had time to do that (Desert Shield prior to Desert Storm), and US troops were not fully committed. What I mean is, in a WWIII scenario, every last knucklehead is being thrown into every last unit, and every last unit is being thrown into the fight. In the Gulf War, Reservists were activated to take over base duties (rather than thrown into the fight), and even then there were plenty of Active Duty units not sent to the desert, to include lots of HQ and service support personnel. This is right before my time, but from what I understand, nobody wanted to miss the war. Thus you end up with units at 150% of T/O. V/R, Jack |
Weasel | 12 Dec 2016 11:23 a.m. PST |
Jack would obviously know better, but I'm inclined to agree with him (just this once though!) that itd be everything and the kitchen sink. Heck, buddy of mine was a computer programmer in the air force and he still got to go hang out guarding a camp in Kuwait during Desert Storm. If the balloon went up and we have 48 hours left until the missiles fly, it'd be hard to scare up a spare soldier anywhere state-side, they'd be on the boats (or planes) :) As far as squad sizes, in the Soviet case at least, the squad size was forced by what you can cram into the back of the BMP. From either late 70's or early 80's, no Soviet infantry was meant to be on foot, they'd all be either in carriers or choppers (on paper). Of course, once you start fighting, that will tend to break down and you don't need a BMP to squabble over the remains of radioactive Berlin. |
nickinsomerset | 12 Dec 2016 11:26 a.m. PST |
A British section was 9 men including driver and vehicle commander. This would not change in wartime, 9 men would not physically fit in the back of a 432, 7 was a squeeze! Reservists would initially form ad hoc sections although if time allowed some could be integrated into regular Companies. The Author of link was a platoon commander with 1QLR in the mid 80s – (We were both in the same barracks at the same time but did not know until a chance meeting some 20 years later!) "There were 3 rifle sections of 9 men, including the driver, they were armed with 1 84mm MAW, a GPMG and SLRs with upto 6 M72 66mm LAW AT Rocket and a number of smoke Grenades and fragmentation grenades. MAWs may be left in the vehicle dependant on the situation, I tended to dismount 1 with the reserve but not with the assaulting sections" Effectively a section of 8 including the gun group, did your source also mention firing blowpipes from Spartans and Lynx flying 6 Airmobile Brigade sub units?! Tally Ho! |
Achtung Minen | 12 Dec 2016 12:59 p.m. PST |
Nick, thank you for your service! I am wondering if you knew of any FV432 variant that could house 1 driver and 10 passengers? I was relying in part on Jane's guide for those numbers and I was under the impression that Jane's is a fairly reliable source for Cold War equipment. Also, I am assuming the MAW would have been the Carl Gustav, but were there other MAW in regular use? If the Charlie G weren't included in the section, would that leave enough room for 10 passangers? Also, I was watching this 1980's training video on British fire and maneuver tactics, which gives the total boots on the ground as 10 men (a 3-man LMG group and a 7-man rifle assault element): YouTube link Did you ever see this or a similar training video during your service and did your CO comment about the 10-man squad it portrayed? |
raylev3 | 12 Dec 2016 1:31 p.m. PST |
US mech infantry during the period you're discussing had 11 men in the squad. When they dismounted two men stayed in the M113 -- one to man the .50 in support of the dismounted men, and the driver. So, nine men dismounted into two fire teams (4 men each) and the squad leader. Keep in mind that forward deployed (Germany) divisions were kept above strength, usually 110 percent. Obviously there are always exceptions, but a good rule of thumb. |
nickinsomerset | 12 Dec 2016 1:33 p.m. PST |
AM, no 432 variant allowed for extra passengers. Yep MAW was the Charlie G. 10 was the "standard" section size, however it could not always be maintained! The 80s also saw a change from the classic Rifle/Gun group to 2 x fire teams, evolving tactics and prep for Warrior. Plenty of good old videos on that link, Troop/Platoon tactics being a classic showing basic tactics, that can be applied up to Battle Group level, Tally Ho! |
Achtung Minen | 12 Dec 2016 2:28 p.m. PST |
Ray, very interesting. I know fireteams were flexible in practice, but would these be reasonable groups for the early 1980's? Fireteam Alpha (M203, M47 and two M16A1) and Fireteam Bravo (M-60, assistant w/ M16A1, M203 and M16A1)? Nick, thank you for the quick confirmation. By 10 as the "standard" size, do you mean for training purposes only? I was under the impression (really more of an assumption than anythng else) that all British infantry were mechanized (which would be a problem if 10 men were too much for the FV432). |
raylev3 | 12 Dec 2016 3:08 p.m. PST |
During my time in an armor battalion, with a sister infantry battalion (late 70s) we were organized as I noted above. Each squad had an M60, so generally one fire team had the M60, assistant gunner (with M16), an M203 grenadier, and team leader with M16. The second fire team was team leader, M203 grenadier, and two M16 guys. And don't forget that everyone could have a LAW. Having said that the squad leader could change things up as the situation demanded. Keep in mind there are several unit types to consider: mech, leg, airborne, air assault, mountain. They each could be different. Also, depends on the time period and where they were in development. As heavier equipment was added, such as the Dragon, that would affect how many dismounted. You began to see one team left on the M113, with a slightly larger maneuver team that would dismount. For those who don't have it, here's a link to the 1985 FM 7-7 on the mechanized platoon and squad the describes the unit after the Dragon became available (note, they still carried LAWs). A little later than you wanted, but great info. PDF link The manual you really want is FM 7-7, from 1977. But you'll probably have to buy this one thru Amazon. I can't find a PDF version. |
Legion 4 | 12 Dec 2016 3:17 p.m. PST |
there's not time for guys to come in from anywhere else, much less be organized and integrated into units. Yes … you try to keep your units up to full strength every day. If you get deployed tomorrow, you want all your units at 100% or as close as possible. You want all those in your unit to be trained and experienced in working together as a unit, etc., … And yes, Ray I agree. With an 11 man Mech Squad, 2 the Driver and TC stayed with the track. Leaving you only 9 dismounts. I know fireteams were flexible in practice, but would these be reasonable groups for the early 1980's? Fireteam Alpha (M203, M47 and two M16A1) and Fireteam Bravo (M-60, assistant w/ M16A1, M203 and M16A1)? Yes, that is about the correct breakdown for the dismounts … Save for each Fire Tm received an M249 SAW, in the mid to late 80s. I commanded a Mech Co.(M113)'87-'89(18 months). With separate Mech Bde at Benning. Which was part of the 18th ABN Corps. Mech Inf Sqd - 1 Sqd Ldr M16 [usually] Alpha Tm : 1 M60 1 M249 1 M203 2 M16s Bravo Tm :
1 M47 MAW 1 M249 1 M203 2 M16s Note: a Driver and TC stay with the Track. They'd have M16s. And the TC had the M2 .50 cal. mounted on the Track. You never leave any heavy weapons behind when you dismount. You need all the firepower you can get. And we made it a point to try to qualify everyone in the Company with all the weapons organic to the unit. Rotating Heavy Weapons Gunners often. And tried to have everyone licensed as a Track driver as well. everyone could have a LAW. Yes, they were issued like hand grenades.
Keep in mind there are several unit types to consider: mech, leg, airborne, air assault, mountain. They each could be different. Also, depends on the time period and where they were in development Yes as a Rifle Plt Ldr, '80-'81, in an Air Assault Bn with the 101. We had everything that the Mech Squad had save for the M249s and the .50 cal & M113, of course. However, there was a slot designated for a SAW but they had not been issued yet. One of the Squad got a "close pin" bipod for his M16. He was the Designated SAW … Yes, I know it did not make that much a difference. Until they actually were issued M249s a few years later. And generally Leg, Airborne and Mountain were organized similarly. When we went thru the Inf Ofc Basic Course, '79. You had two types of Training Companies. Mech & Light. For the first month or so all the training was similar. Then for the rest of the course, about 2 months, IIRC(?). The training was based on your actual first duty assignment. I was in the Light track as everyone there was going to a Light Infantry unit like the 101, 82d, 7ID, etc., … Not a Mech unit. |
Achtung Minen | 12 Dec 2016 4:05 p.m. PST |
Ray, thanks for that, it is very interesting! The field manual seems to indicate that an H-series TO&E breaks the 11-man team into a 2-man carrier group (driver and gunner/vehicle commander) and a 9-man dismount group, as you describe. The dismount procedure illustrations suggest that the dismounted men could be divided into a team of four lead by the assistant squad leader (with an M203) and a SAW, a rifleman and the second M203. The other dismount team could be made up of the AT specialist (with an M47 Dragon and an M16A1), the squad leader (with an M16A1), the second SAW and two men serving the GPMG (armed with an M16A1 and the M-60). Of course, I am sure this is just one of many possible arrangements, but it is an interesting formation nonetheless (with two grenadiers in one team and the M-60 and M47 in the other team). From the illustrations, the SAW at this stage was simply a bipod-mounted M16 (which is strange, because the manual is from 1985 and the M249 was supposedly adopted in 1984). That said, the manual does seem to treat the J-series TOE as the "new" style, so H-series could have been around for years before the 1985 FM was published. Did you have SAWs in your squads, and were they Colt M16's with bipods? |
Legion 4 | 12 Dec 2016 4:15 p.m. PST |
We discussed something about this, H Series, etc., on this thread as well … TMP link And in the time period Ray served I'd think they had no M249s. But the M16 w/"Clothes Pin" … 84' sounds about right for the issued of the M249s, IIRC … formation nonetheless (with two grenadiers in one team and the M-60 and M47 in the other team). Possible but unlikely, I know we never did that. But I commanded only one of the many, many Mech Companies in the US ARMY at that time … |
Achtung Minen | 12 Dec 2016 7:53 p.m. PST |
I managed to get my hands on FM 7-7 (September 30, 1977) and it is quite interesting. Here is what I found out: The 11-man squad was broken up into a carrier team and a maneuver team, both under control of the squad leader. The carrier team would consist of, at minimum, 2 men (the M113 driver and the carrier team leader who would man the vehicle mounted .50 cal). The remaining 9 men, including the squad leader, would form the maneuver element. However, if the squad was assigned one of the platoon's extra M47 Dragon weapons or M-60 GPMGs, these would be given to maneuver riflemen who would then be reassigned to the carrier team. Thus, an extra M47 and M-60 for the squad would increase the carrier team from 2 to 5 (the M-60 required two crew) and decrease the maneuver element from 9 to 6. These extra carrier team members would be under the command of the carrier team leader (i.e., the mounted .50 cal gunner) and could fight from inside the vehicle (from the top hatch!) or fight dismounted but nearby the M113, essentially performing security for the vehicle. Of course, the M47 Dragon would need to dismount to fire. The maneuver team had the squad's only integral M-60. Normally, the M-60 gunner and the assistant loader would be directly attached to the squad leader. The maneuver team would also have a team leader, who would take point with most of the other men. The maneuver team would thus advance in two wedges, normally five men (including the team leader) ahead and four men (including the squad leader) behind. The point was to be able to have the most eyes and firepower at the head of the formation, but hold the squad leader and LMG in the rear so the squad leader would have more control and situational awareness (allowing him to deploy the M-60 group in the most effective position during an unexpected firefight). If the maneuver team was six or fewer men, however, they would maneuver as one wedge. Aside from the maneuver team leader, the squad leader and the LMG gunner and loader, the remaining five men had M16A1 rifles. There is scant mention of any "automatic riflemen" like we see in the 1985 FM 7-7, but the squad did have two DPW (dual purpose weapons, what the 1977 FM 7-7 calls a M16 with underslung M203 grenade launcher). Going by the illustrations, it seems like the suggestion is to put these in the front maneuever element, perhaps to maximize firepower. However, there appear to be no explicit prescriptions about this. In some pictures, the maneuver team leader has the M203, but in others he only has a rifle. In combat, the carrier team would either stay behind the main firing positions until needed or would set up to have wide fields of fire over open terrain (leaving difficult or dense terrain on the flanks for the dismounted maneuver element). In this way, the M113 was meant to be a complimentary fighting element to the dismounted troops, but in many ways it seemed to be more important and vital to protect than the dismounted soldiers (which makes sense… it was their ride, after all). If an M113 was lost, the surviving squad would be distributed amongst the other vehicles (there was a little room in the Platoon Leader's M113 for carrying the squad leader and some of his men in the event of a lost vehicle). The platoon had three or four unassigned M47's and a couple unassigned M-60's, which were to be distributed as needed for the mission. Interestingly, the platoon did not have LAW's among its armaments, but had to requisition them (just like mines and extra grenades). |
Legion 4 | 13 Dec 2016 7:56 a.m. PST |
There was a mount for the M47 to fire from the Cdr's hatch of the 113. Can't remember when it came about. We had that capability. The Carrier Tm would provide suppressive fire from a covered and concealed position with .50 to the Maneuver Tm. The M47 is really just the Tracker. The Round is expendable like the LAW and Grenades. The Tracker was kept in the Arms Room. The M47 Missile, LAWs, Grenades, etc,. were supplied from the Ammo Storage Point/Ammo Dump. The unassigned M47s were the missile not the Tracker. Those extra rounds were kept in the 113. If not issued to the Squad's M47 Tracker. The Tracker mates with the missile. And once fired, it is destroyed and discarded. The M72 LAW is the same. The are considered munitions like any other ammo, like for the M16. etc. I don't remember any extra M60s. There were only 14 or 15 in the Company Arms Room. Each Squad had 1 M60. And maybe an extra for the Co Cdr's Track ? The M113 was not an expendable asset as a you see some gamers play it. You lose the Track you lose your mobility. And maybe the M2 50. cal. It could be dismounted if need be. The tripod, T&E, etc. was kept in the Track. The M2 was much too heavy to move very far dismounted. 127lbs. and that does not include the ammo. And yes, you could fight from the Troop Hatch. But that rarely ever occurred. Infantry generally do their best work on the ground. And the M113 is very "fragile". You moved from cover to cover, if possible, just like the dismounts do. And again the M113s when not carrying the Squad, was to provide fire support for the Maneuver Tm(s). If an M113 was broken down or destroyed the Squad would be cross-leveled with the other tracks in the Platoon. Aside from the maneuver team leader, the squad leader and the LMG gunner and loader, the remaining five men had M16A1 rifles. There is scant mention of any "automatic riflemen" like we see in the 1985 FM 7-7, but the squad did have two DPW (dual purpose weapons, what the 1977 FM 7-7 calls a M16 with underslung M203 grenade launcher). Yes, I already posted that above. Each Fire Tm had an M203. And the "LMG" was actually the M60 until the M249 SAW was issued. The maneuver team would thus advance in two wedges, normally five men (including the team leader) ahead and four men (including the squad leader) behind. You could have two Fire Tm Wedges. With 4-5 troops based on the fact that the Driver and TC stayed with the Track. You could have two – 4 man Fire Tms with the SL in the middle controlling them or with one of the Teams. Usually with the lead Tm.
they would maneuver as one wedge. If the Terrain permitted it all the dismounts move in Fire Tm wedges. That is the standard formation again if terrain allowed it. Again generally all or most of the heavy weapons were with the dismounted teams. The M60, M47, 2 M203s and 2 M249s. Everyone else would be packing an M16 along with extra ammo for the M60, and the M47 or LAWs. |
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