"Why no Very German Civil War gaming?" Topic

There is the vibrant Very British Civil War community. There is a nascent Very American Civil War community, but I am surprised there is no potential Very German Civil War community. I am not referring to the 1918-1921 events, but to a decision of the Social Democrats to fight in reaction the Enabling Acts. It probably is a more likely scenario than the other two more popular what if civil wars.

You have large paramilitary forces available to all sides (the Red Guards of the Communists, the Storm-Troopers of the NSDP, and the Reichsbanner Schwarz-Rot-Gold dominated by the SDP, plus other smaller ones). You have active and powerful local governments that could act as the power centers for military camps (Prussia for the SDP, Bavaria for the Bavarian conservatives). You have a history of escalating violence. And every side could look to potential military commanders from the Army (Kurt von Hammerstein-Equord for the SDP).

So not an impossible war. And one with great promise for a variety of military groups, and international interventions (Poles,Italy, Czechs, Austrians, France, Belgium, UK). So how come it has bot been broached?

I've played it as a board game but it is rife for skirmish gaming material.

As for why not, I'm not sure.

It's the same period as the Russian civil war, the Polish invasion of Ukraine, the Finnish civil war and the Russian attack into Poland, all of which seem ample gaming.

Hi Weasel, I have failed to clarify my question. I am not talking about the 1918-1920 fighting, but about a potential 1933 civil war. I apologize.

Maybe people are German'd out with WWI and WWII gaming?

Although the same thing might be said of the Brits

I suspect that people outside of Germany are a lot less aware of the German political scene 'tween wars

How is this for the starting scenario, after WW-I the Weimar Republic disintegrates and all the German states that formed the Empire, revert to their pre-1870 status? Bavaria, Prussia, Wurtemburg all vie to maintain their status as well as battle reactionary or revolutionary forces.

That would be good. All the Nazi leaders from 23 on would have to fight in the streets. Women fighters, socialists, Imperials, Arms industry mercenaries(Krupp unt Junker Sturmtruppen), ex-WW1 adventurers, Soviet insurgents, garden variety socialists, Italian Fascisti, mixed cavalry, infantry. armored car/some tanks kampfgruppen, air parity with mixed squadrons, Allied Garrisons besieged by all.

Everybody into the pool. Ernest Hemingway writes a new book-'Wilkommen!'

Everybody do this.

Kriegsmarine choices-

1. comply and sail to Scapa Flow(no scuttling)
2. scuttle all ships, form Naval Infantry Socialist Battalions with crews
3. scatter across the world--'WILL FIGHT FOR FOOD AND FUEL'
4.-5. Hand ships over to various factions
6. Assemble under a charismatic commander for one last battle against the RN.

Kaiser retreats to Prussia not Holland.

Personally, I think many people shy away from collecting Nazi Party thugs and worse from that period as a "side"--it is one thing to collect German figures, another to collect British or Spanish fascists, but a far cry from either to war game Nazi street thugs and worse as your "army" in gaming. Can you imagine gaming your brown shirts against jewish militia in public? That is a step too far for many people.

I could be off, but my first thought is that part of the charm of VBCW/AQMF/VACW is that it lets miniature wargamers fight in their own backyards, putting troops and tanks in neighborhoods they know.

German wargamers don't need to invent a war for that purpose.

I think YogiBearMinis makes a good point, for US gamers any way. That said I'd play the heck out of a Reichsbanner unit. I guess you could build one up from various partisan and Volksturm figures.

Oh shoot, I misread your post then KTravlos.

A 30's german civil war would be a lot of fun to play as well, I'd say.
Would have to keep it tasteful of course.

The only reason why I haven't jumped into VBCW is that I'm not very knowledgeable on the geography of the small towns and areas of the U.K. And their associated history and culture.

love option 3 how do you say AAAAH in German

I would be very uncomfortable in seeing this german period played on the table. Just my opinion.

Interestingly the Peter Pig Square Bashing rules have army lists to cover this period. I plan on giving it a go with my early and late German armies.

I still think that the Russian and Spanish Civil Wars cover all the ground the VBCW or any VGVW cover/would cover. I;ve never understood making up ahistorical wars set in the same time period with essentially the same issues (and would use similar rules and scenarios).

Well one difference between the RCW and SCW and a GCW would be the greater power of more liberal and social democratic forces, and the three way character of it, since after the 1918-1920 fighting the Communists are unlikely to ally with the SPD-Center (compare the much weaker position of the anti-Bolshevik Left in Russia, or the liberals and social democrats in Spain). The three way fine means that there is less chance of the more stark ideological choices of the two other wars. Perhaps.

Also the potential role of the constituent states of the German Republic in such a war is very different from Spain or Russia. German states had power in Weimar(which is why Hitler broke them to pieces after he came to power and created a unitary state)

I suppose one thing is that instead of the rather joke BUF types in VBCW, you'd have genuine Nazi stormtroopers in the game. Somewhat less amusing, as the whole point of VBCW is to be somewhat light hearted.

Also as noted above, many of us already do GCW. Friekorps and all that.

Not sure I would consider the Falange, or some of the factions of the RCW (on both sides) that much better than the SA. Hell many of the Friekorps of 1918-1920 would feel quite at home in NSDP or DNVP armies in a 1933 war. But I do get the point.

I wonder if some of it is the character of the opposition. Maybe people do not want to fight even games against parties like the SDP or Center in Weimar Germany the same way they would be willing to fight games against the 2nd Spanish Republic, or the Bolsheviks, or Whites in RCW.

I think once you look at what happened in Germany a Very German Civil War exactly describes the putsch that happened. As such it's no longer a fun light-hearted little game, but rather the prelude to WW2.

Cannon Fodder miniatures of Australia used to have a cracking little line for the German civil unrest following WWI. Unfortunately I think they're no longer available.

Thank you all. It was a very interesting thread.

Well one difference between the RCW and SCW and a GCW would be the greater power of more liberal and social democratic forces, and the three way character of it,

Plenty of three way character in the RCW -- the Polish, Latvian, Estonian and Ukranian Nationalist forces opposed both Reds and Whites.

That's before you throw in the Interventionists to make many of the theatres four-sided.

I assumed the charm of VBCW was the 'Very British' aspect: a more 'civilized' civil war. (Whether it actually IS is beside the point.)

History actually saw what various armed factions did in Germany, and it wasn't quite so whimsical. That might be why we don't see VGCW games. Not to say that you can't do it, just why people don't look to it so much.

I think the main reason is that most gamers we have posting here are from the UK or US . From what I remember of the VBCW forums there was a sizable amount of people that were doing the equivalency in their countries .
Add to the lack of a lot of source material in English and there you have it.
I really don't think it has anything to do with not wanting to play the Nazi's or any political party . Gamers have never shied away from letting the reality of a group affect their fielding the forces .

Brownbear (or anyone else )-May I ask why you would be uncomfortable with seeing this gamed ? I am not being facetious ,I really would like to know .

grtbrt--as stated by others: too close to what history actually turned out to be. Lots of potential for bad feelings; the only way I could see it happening is if a certain Austrian failed artist was blown up in a beer hall, and his legacy was drastically watered down or experienced a paradigm shift.

"That would be good……..WW1 adventurers, Soviet insurgents, garden variety socialists, Italian Fascisti,"
quite impossible in 1933…Mussolini considered, in 1933, Germany as a potential ennemy and Hitler a rude parvenue…after Dolfuss assassination Fascist Italy was in the verge of a military clash with Germany..maybe it coud be interesting, for once, to imagine Italian "guardia alla Frontiera" alpine units with their feathered hat supporting Austrian anti anschluss forces vs Germans

If gamers were concerned about bad feelings would there be as many SS units ? or people gaming the problems in Ireland ? or Arab-Israeli conflicts ? or even modern anti-"terrorist " operations ?