"British supplied artillery question." Topic

The British supplied artillery pieces to both the Spanish and the Prussians.

My questions are these;

1) I presume that this would include both limbers and caissons.Is this correct?
2) Would the equipment; carriages and implements, be repainted in national colours for appropriate nation or left in their original British livery?

I would presume that the Prussians would and that the Spanish would not repaint.

This is an interesting question and I think the British approach to the Prussians and Spanish would be different.

For the Spanish I think that matters would be similar to those with the Portuguese. The latter were basically almost fully reequipped by the British receiving ordnance and supporting limbers and ammunition wagons wholesale. The evidence suggests that they were painted the RA blue/grey. I suspect that the Spanish would be the same given the amount of equipment lost to the French. Also I think it would be acceptable to have British supplied equipment in blue/grey as the basic Spanish colour was a grey.

The Prussians were slightly different in that they needed artillery to support a greatly increased force that already had an established doctrine and infrastructure rather than replacing great losses. The British field ordnance was compatible with the Prussian limber so it is quite possible to see them combined, though a British limber seems more likely. Prussian caissons and wagons would continue to be used. As to colour, the Prussians being the Prussians I think that they would paint their equipment their own blue. colour.

The only case I ever followed down to the actual guns was the artillery of the Loyal Lusitanian Legion--who were given captured French equipment, reconditioned. Not at all what I would have guessed. But of course they were not, then, part of the Portuguese Army, which was rebuilt on British lines.

I am only guessing, but I rather expect that in contrast to the Portuguese Army, the Spanish also would have received captured French equipment whenever possible, being on the same Gribeauval system the Peninsular French were using. As for paint, if the British made uniforms to spec for the Spanish and Portuguese, I'd not be surprised if they painted or repainted guns to suit national standards.

But Prussia is different. In 1813 the need is great,time is limited and I imagine some very odd uniforms and equipment are known to have been issued. By the time they've given British-made Russian uniforms to the Hanseatic Legion, white tropical shakos to Hanover and Portuguese and Rifle uniforms to Prussian reservists, no one's going to be surprised as a block-trail gun, nor quibble about the paint.

Yes, unless one can find period evidence of the contrary, given the speed of the build up and the general mess. Would they repaint Brit 6lb and Russian 12lb they just got all nice and shiny, till they need it?
To add to the above, they had one gun crew in ex Austrian infantry dress ( taken over already by poles!) French reconditionned depots shakoes , backpacks etc. everything. Sure they could have had big stores of paint.
If you have Brits, Prussians andRussians , sure you can save a bit.

I cannot find any evidence that artillery pieces, nor limbers were repainted in war time in Prussia, the did not only get the waggons and guns but also the tack and they were quite fond of it.

A question is how often was the paint on these touched up? I would expect that would be the time to change the colour.

Its probably one of those things do what you think is best. I opted painting my French 12pdrs for my Prussians in their French colors. But have my British 6pdrs painted in Prussian color. I also have the impression limbers came with the guns but have no idea where I read that.

As the Prussians took to time to 'Prussianize' the uniform shipments from Britain, I would submit that, Prussians being Prussians, their artillery arm would take the time to repaint any foreign artillery pieces and ancillary vehicles that they would receive.

That's also part of the maintenance of the equipment.

They wanted to look Prussian, not British.

The British also equipped the new and excellent Portuguese artillery arm with sufficient field ordnance for operations with the main army. The Portuguese also manufactured block trail gun carriages and artillery vehicles to British specifications and patterns from at least 1810.

The Spanish had adopted the French Gribeauval artillery system before the wars but lost much of this captured by the French from 1808. The British did send artillery and ancillary vehicles to resupply the Spanish artillery arm. However, the Gribeauval System remained the standard. The Spanish preferred it to the British guns and vehicles and when the wars were over they went back to it for the army.

Dear All
British equipment was painted Medium Grey and NEVER blue grey. This is a mistake made due to photographs giving a blueish colour if not corrected.

The Board of Ordnance set up a Carriage department in Lisbon in late 1809.

There was rarely the time to repaint the carriages for any of the combatants.

Remember the Dutch were using French AnXI ordnance in 1815.
Stephen

Yes. Kind of remember they broke wheels a lot, would not even be surprised if cannibalizations and bits in plain wood during campaign were the norm. After all far better stadardized modern armies do it.

In 1815 those Prussians might have done it tidy though. A bit of peace.

There was rarely the time to repaint the carriages for any of the combatants.

Really?

Do you have a source for that?

As painting the gun carriage was part of the maintenance required and to preserve the wood, I disagree completely unless you can substantiate your comment with a credible source.

Idle soldiers do naughty things. Officers always made sure to keep their soldiers busy. making them paint some carriages is the perfect thing. Also with the training and all mustering during the armistice in 1813. There would be down time.

If it moves, salute it.
If it does not move, pick it up
If you cannot pick it up, paint it…….

Old saying…… goes back many a decade

1. I think you'll find limbers almost always accompany the guns. Recipient nations aren't likely to have a limber surplus, and not all limbers work with all guns.
2. Repaint in 1813? Maybe. If the guns arrived before or early in the Armistice. I hear a lot of "would haves" and not a lot of diaries, memoirs or general orders. Remember with all those newly-raised batteries there's going to be quite a lot of drill to keep men busy.
3. Repaint after the First Abdication and before the Hundred Days? More likely, I should think. The urgency is past, and they thought it was peacetime. But I have no evidence either.
4. Let's remember it's purely an aesthetic question. Does anyone have a set of rules which distinguishes between a Prussian gun crew with a Prussian 6-pd gun and a Prussian gun crew with a British 6-pd gun? And does anyone maintain separate 1813-14 and 1815 Prussian armies?
5. Deadhead, you haven't lived. A buddy of mine was assigned to a transport unit on Fort Sill. The company CO wanted the rocks outside her billets painted Transportation Corps Red. The permanent party wanted the rocks painted Artillery Red. Alternately. This went on for weeks until no one was sure which red was which anymore, and the post commander decreed that all Fort Sill rocks were to be painted white.
6. Let's try not to be like that.

Peace time armies know where priorities and efforts should be directed. And money too.
Painting rock ;(( !!!!!!!!

I thought it was:
If it moves, move it.
If it doesn't move, paint it.
If you can't paint it, salute it.

If you think painting rocks is bad, try polishing brass in the Navy.

Well your version is better, whether right or wrong!

We have the navy version:
If it does not move paint or polish it, if it moves salute it. ( ( flags and the other type of brass).