"Wargames without randomness" Topic

After discussion elsewhere I could make two lists of non-random wargames.
The first is a list of deterministic boardgames that could be directly adapted to miniature gaming.
The second is an even more restricted list of rules published as Miniature Wargaming without randomizers.

Boardgames (that could be adapted):
- Battle: The Game of Generals (1979)
- Ancients, variant (1986)
- Phalanx (1993)
- Centurion, plus other titles (1995-2015)

Published as Miniature Wargames:
– The Complete Brigadier (1982)
– The Ebb and Flow of Battle (1988)
– AWE 10 (2016)

The reason for this post is a quest to find more titles that will fit into one or another of these lists.

Swords and Spells (TSR 1976)

Ritter (1995) and Fusilier (?) by Hamster Press
hamsterpress.net/?page_id=88

Looks like Fusilier is no longer available

These TFP (Total Fighting Power) Games had no random elements:

Clash of Empires (Austro-Prussian War of 1866)

Iron and Fire (ACW 1862 Shenandoah)

Possibly their game on the Spanish Civil War (title unknown)

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There are card-driven games without randomizers, but the players secretly choose cards and reveal their values to get results. Like the Richard Sivel boardgames or the "Aurelian" ancients rules.

Napoleon's Triumph

Never played, only read about. No dice, no cards. The catch is that unit strength is unknown to your opponent until the point of contact.

I remember a very old tattered green booklet of wargames rules that needed no dice, but for the life of me can't remember what they were called.

Chess?

Dear Sirs,

I meant games that can be directly adapted to miniatures gaming.
Ritter 1995 is included under Centurion 2015, the latest implementation.
Napoleon's Triumph and former Borodino are important, but not playable as miniatures because they use anonymous wooden blocks. But these have influenced AWE 10 and that's acknowledged.
Cards games do not qualify for direct miniatures conversion, as far as I know.
Chess does not apply in my opinion, or you would have to include all abstract games as well.
I'll check each other title mentioned, obliged.

Having played some of the games listed above I think that there may be a problem that you're not addressing, which is are any of those games fun to play? IMHO I think that The Complete Brigadier was a stroke of genius and if you want to learn about command in the Horse & Musket era that is definitely a game for you. However, I could not get anyone in my group to try it more than once and I would think that most of the others on that list lack the "fun factor". I think anything new produced today would have a very limited audience.

Definitely:
- Swords and Spells (1976)
- Clash of Empires (1984); Iron and Fire (1984); Shock Army (1986) collection

All were published as miniature wargames without randomizers and written orders. That's exactly what I was looking for, to complete these lists.

aegiscg:
That's right. I know because I have produced AWE 10!

Rules for Wargaming, Arthur Taylor (1971, Shire Publications)
[Timbo W – these have a green cover.]

American Civil War Wargaming (Airfix Guide), Terence Wise (1977, Patrick Stephens).
This is a hybrid. Used fixed number of casualties for firing, but dice for melee – line the figures up highest number wins.

Demosthenes:
Rules for Wargaming, Arthur Taylor (1971, Shire Publications)

These are the oldest mentioned. Maybe Taylor was the first author to publish Miniature rules without randomizers or even written orders?

Cheers Demosthenes those were the ones. I read them long long ago but never played a game. Did anyone try them?

My goodness there's a picture and review online, wish I hadn't lost them now PDF link

Rules for Wargaming, Arthur Taylor

I've never played them but I bought a second hand copy because I have a library of the early wargaming books – Grant, Featherstone, etc. and it was another one to add to the collection. Looking at all the early stuff I have it is the only rule set that doesn't use dice.

Forgot to mention the American Civil War Wargaming (Airfix Guide), Terence Wise rules also have deterministic morale as well. Units are assigned a points value based on numbers of men, NCOs and officers and break on a fixed number of casualties (= points loss). The breakpoints differing depending on whether they are veterans, experienced or recruits.

Warchest, by UniGames.

Rules for Wargaming, Arthur Taylor

Saw prices on Ebay from 25 to 46 euro. These are kind of a relic now.

@Jerboa,

They have been reprinted by the History of Wargaming project: link or here link

If only the umpires saw the dice then you're back to a D&D game and where you essentially do what the umpire says. Sorry, seen too many games where the umpire (or dungeon master) is going to force you through what he wants to do.

Demostenes:
You did mention American Civil War Wargaming (Airfix Guide), Terence Wise. My problem is that I cannot understand the role of the random part. If it can significantly affect the outcome they do not qualify.
Taylor rules are a mystery to me, but what I know is that as a kid we started to play WW2 battles trying to guess distances to hit. But the impression is that those are rather sketchy, as those of the Clash of Empire Series.

Whirlwind and Timbo W:
Thank vm for links.

Ottoathome:
Do you mean that any of the above mentioned rules need an umpire? Umpire driven sessions do not qualify, I'm looking only for regular games that can be played 2p: role play excluded. Arbitrary decisions are worse than randomization for a fair game.

Hoxie:
Very interesting play system, better for me than other grid games currently used for historical gaming. And a complete game, not some sketch. Published 1999 I guess.

Define randomness?

Wings of war/Glory.

The flying part has no random element. You choose your maneuver card without knowing, what the enemy does. The shooting part is also without randomness, being in the fire arc is a hit. The only random part is the damage, you draw damage crads.

Randomness is the lack of pattern or predictability in events.

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To be more specific in this case, games without randomizers, like dice or card drawing, in other words, deterministic.
I prefer to talk about stochastic when referring to a system with more than one variable, but strictly random = stochastic.

Taylor in his introduction defines very well a deterministic view of wargaming, comparing it to chess. I only partially agree.

Deterministic games so far are more 'simulations' than games. A good wargame requires outcomes that are not predictable, or the tension of battle is lost. In fact I'm exploring what can be designated as a step decision determistic model, that retains the deterministic property of no random variables, but at the same time does not allow predictable outcomes.
One boardgame example is Stratego. But it's logic fails in this setting because it requires anonymous 'units'.

This thread is to list and learn about efforts before AWE 10 to reach the objective of a game where players decisions are more important than luck to the final outcome, excluding partially stochastic systems.
It is a question of history: should I ignore the history of deterministic games when publishing in that area? My own experiences only raised my interest on this subject and to learn is priceless.

Man on Man (1996) R. Bracey

These are ancient miniature rules where combat is decided by deterministic charts.
I've tried to contact the author that signs ksi45, from uk, without success.
Interesting rules, still do not know if they can be different from other deterministic rules listed.

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