".38 caliber vs. 9mm question" Topic

I know this is OT, even for Utter Drivel. Two women at work are getting concealed carry permits. I know nothing about the individual who is conducting the class, other than his rate(supposedly just for folks he knows and he is "choosy" about who he admits) is much less costly than what I have heard prior in my state of residence.

Now, here is the question. Both women were told that a 9mm round would not penetrate a human forehead from a distance within 25 feet, but a .38 would. He of course was recommending their purchasing .38s. Considering my "round of choice " was 7.62 Nato from an M-14 and the only adult pistol experience I have had was over 47 years ago with Uncle Sam's M1911. This just didn't sound right. I did fire an old snub nose .38 and my Dad's 9mm Radom when I was maybe
9 or 10, but that is it for my pistol experience. Now, I realize that there are different powder loads and types of rounds, but to say that a 9mm head shot from less than 10 yards would not penetrate a skull, just sounded preposterous. Can any of you pistol enthusiasts, veterans who used the 9mm Beretta, or law enforcement officers either verify or confirm this? It just sounded like cow droppings to me.

thanks for solving my curiosity.

Sam

Have a look at this:
link

Why are they aiming for the head? Were Jon Woo movies shown as examples in this pistol course? I know several people who carry 9mms because they have a compact pistol that they feel is comfortable. They all load +p hollow points. One is a cop, one is a Army officer. Oddly enough the people who argue with them about how effective the 9mm round is have volunteered to be shot to prove their point…

And this article points to placement over type. That you need to practice aand be consistent in placement for stopping power. Can't say I disagree, as a person is more likely t be effective with a weapon they cn confortably and effectively use than one of an arbitrary caliber.

link

Agree with whitphoto go for centre of mass, head shot is a risky shot in a high stress situation.

At that range both will penetrate assuming accurate shot placement. 9mm JHP's have good penetrating power at the short ranges where most 'gunfights' occur.

The choice of a Revolver or Pistol is more often about concealment, reliability and the environment/weather conditions under which the weapon is carried.

I normally carry a Glock 19 (or 26 – both 9mm) but will go down to a S&W J Frame 38 based on circumstantial conditions.

As an instructor I avoid caliber arguments with students (i.e., other than a minimum base caliber of 38) and stress repetitive training with their weapon of choice.

40mm.2 shots.

Make him stand with only his forehead showing above suitable cover and take that 9mm … yeh, that's what I thought.

Nothing wrong with 9mm or .38…. I would go with the platform that is easier for the shooter to carry and practice with. Being women, smaller frames, they probably should have a smaller weapon to carry (depending on how they carry), I am guessing that a small frame .38 WOULD be better in that regard, but there are many compact 9mm's out there too. And again, it should be something that the shooter is comfortable shooting, so that they do indeed practice often. A weapon the shooter is afraid of, or that is uncomfortable to shoot, will be a weapon they do not practice with.

If their instructor is actually telling them something like that, they should look for a new instructor. Probably will tell them " .22 can't kill you " or other bs statements.

Chalfant

Colt 45 auto ….. jst to be sure.

I carried both for a number of years. Both have their good and bad points.
However, for a woman I would recommend a S&W model 36.
It's a 5 shot revolver, that is incredibly dependable, requires little maintenance and can easily be concealed and fired.
It's small and that's better for a woman hand. There no safety, so it's point and shoot.

That's what I would go with.

Sam, Nevinsrip is correct. My wife has a S&W Model 36.
It's an easy fit in her purse and at 25 feet she can
put 4 rounds in center of mass in about 15 seconds.

IDK about penetration, but the handiness of the .38 coupled
with its size is what made the sale.

The 9mm – never considered it. Our other handgun is a
S&W .40 (well, we do have an old Taurus .38 revolver,
but it is relegated to house indoor defence with rat
shot rounds).

He's an idiot. Load is what matters and jacket. 38 and 9mm are close enough to be nearly the same thing

Check out the glock 43 for an awesome compact 9mm. Own 2, love them

ED Custom grips? For a woman, I would insist on changing the standard wooden grips, to the more comfortable rubber grips that make the weapon easier to use.
That's what my wife has.

I got SWMBO and myself a Ruger LCP. It is a .380, carries 6 + 1 in the chamber, lightweight and easy for her to handle. I carry it for weight and easy concealment. With the right rounds as effective as a larger caliber weapon.

Box O' Truth didn't shoot skulls and didn't test a .38, but they shot sheet rock and pine boards -

link

We fired several rounds and saw the following Penetration:

.22 Long Rifle (Wildcats) – 4 boards and bounced off 5th board.

9MM JHP (Federal) – 8 boards, bounced off 9th.

.45ACP (Federal Hydrashocks) – 7 boards, bounced off 8th.

Amazingly, none expanded at all. The nose just filled up with pine.

Looks like maybe 5-7 yards and pine boards aren't bone, but…

As to the wheel gun Charter has one in 9mm -

link

With a 6 round capacity it has an advantage over some .38s, but even more so if you also have any other pistols in 9mm.

Thank you, Gentlemen!
You collectively confirmed my suspicions. I too questioned the head shot instead of center mass. and much like Thor666 mentioned, I always thought the two calibers were almost identical.

again, thanks guys!

StoneMtn – got the Bersa .380 for the sister-in-law when she expressed a desire for a carry weapon. The Charter was just out and the price and availability of the .380s was key. As with you I believe that spending some range time and choosing the right ammo will be the key.

The Bersa had a hiccup (mag out safety link was too short) but was fixed and she is comfortable shooting it which is essential.

Just wanted to agree with those who pointed out that if you're aiming for a head, you're doing it wrong. Center mass is where you shoot.

Also germaine to the topic is that .38 is a revolver round and 9mm is a semi-automatic round. You can get some small revolvers, but nothign beats a single-stack auto for slimness and concealability.

Some will argue for a revolver for purse carry, but ask these ladies if they really want to Purse carry, because if you do, your purse becomes a holster and you can NEVER set it down.

For concealed carry I'd use a .380 auto and practice three times a week.

If the instructor fed them the penetration info, they need to find another instructor because this guy is an idiot.

For someone who is not familiar with handguns (and doesn't intend to become familiar with them), I would recommend the .38 as well. If they get a misfeed or a stove pipe, they are going to be standing there with a $400 USD to $600 USD paperweight in their hand because they are not going to know what to do to clear the malfunction and get the gun back into battery.

The new 9mm rounds are suppose to be good enough that some are turning in their .40 for them.
And on an off note, if you're not going to take the time to get familiar with your handgun, you probably shouldn't be getting a CHL.

I agree with others, that statement would make me find another instructor, that guy is an idiot.

Let's not forget that the German army adopted the 9mm parabellum round for their sidearms in 1908, kept it when the P38 Walther pistol was adopted in 1938, and the German police were still using it in the mid 1960's (and probably far beyond). Can anyone really believe the 9mm would have that kind of longevity, if it was too weak to penetrate a skull at that range? Perhaps it might not penetrate the solid-bone head of the idiot who propounded this nonsense, but I have extensive experience shooting this round and can positively attest that it will penetrate eight or nine inches of solid pine.

Obviously I meant 40cal. Had mm on the brain.mm

M203 40mm with Flechette rounds…who needs to even aim?

Revolvers are simple and reliable. No racking the slide, no safety to forget. My EDC is a .38 snubbie. Hey wait a minute! Ruger has chambered it's LCR for 9mm.Also aim for the center of mass.

In the '90s, I worked part-time as a police officer. The full-timers on the department were seriously into their work. They recommended we use Hydroshock or +P which I did. I carried a Beretta 92 FS Centurion (9mm) – still have it. It's basically the same weapon as the M9 except it's got a 1/2" shorter barrel. I also used to shoot my dad's 1911. He had brought it home from WWII and it's all original, including the springs. Never had a stovepipe, double-feed or any other issue with either weapon except when using reloads at a range. I did have an issue with one particular magazine in my 92 FS, which is why it's important to shoot a lot at a range. If you have a difficult mag, or other problem with your weapon, you can replace it or have it repaired. And no one goes for head shots, leg shots or any other Hollywood shots. It's center mass all the way.

Small .38 special revolvers are easy to teach and use, they don't have the problems some people have, like racking the slide (which happens far more than you might think) or forget to turn off the safety, accidentally hit the magazine release, or put their thumb in the way of the slide when firing, causing a failure to eject etc …

.38 comes in a wide range of loads and any decent modern revolver can load the heavier rounds without a problem if a shooter feels comfortable with them.

Want something with more bite ? Get a .357 magnum revolver which also chambers .38 special.

Bonus, my gun of choice right now ? the Rock Island Ultra FS HC – 10mm. A double stacked 10mm 1911 with a 16 shot capacity. My choice to deal with most threats, including Grizzly Bears and 8-foot tall barbarians with arms as big as some people are wide.

In a personal defense situation it could come down to half seconds and you might only get the chance to get one shot off; better to hit your target with a smaller caliber round than miss with a larger caliber.

A friend of ours has a 380 with the laser sight, all in a stunning pink! This lady knows her weapons and really likes how compact the 380 is.

Ironicon: 40mm would take care of any problem, but there would be no mass left over of center,

I use a 9mm P+ load and everything I have read and watched tells me that it has over-penetration for home protection use, and that a .38 would be better by comparison for stopping power. I am not switching, though.

I plan to eventually get a .45 to replace it and gift the 9mm to my adult son (after he gets professionally trained, I've taken him out a few times, but the more safety training the better as far as I'm concerned.)

Practice, practice practice.

As several have stated shot placement is key and while it is good to be able to hit a head sized target, center of mass is and should be the point of aim.

Both revolvers and semi-autos have advantages, what will they be willing to carry daily and hit what they shoot at. My wife carries a purple .380 daily, it shoots hard but she will have it with her when I may not be there.

Practice, practice practice.

As several have stated shot placement is key and while it is good to be able to hit a head sized target, center of mass is and should be the point of aim.

Both revolvers and semi-autos have advantages, what will they be willing to carry daily and hit what they shoot at. My wife carries a purple .380 daily, it shoots hard but she will have it with her when I may not be there. As far as the safety or lack there of, no safety is easier to use for defense but if you have untrained children who might be able to access it a safety can be the vital stop before tragedy. (I think every child should be trained on safety but I also know that not all do that)

I would definitely suggest that if they go to that trainer you or someone familiar with firearms spend time mentoring them, after the government required training.

The new G43 is a sexy little tool…I really like it…want one for Christmas…Santa? Santa? Hear my plea…

9mm, 92f, or Px4 subcompact, either will do, I carry both, or even an 84 cheetah, .38 cal. I like Barettas