"75 years ago tomorrow the Japanese Fleet sails" Topic

Just wanted to mention in case some don't know that Nov 26th 1941 the Japanese Carrier Fleet sailed from Japan on it's way to Pearl Harbor.

"Climb Mount Niitaka", in the long run, didn't work out so well for them.

Shoulda' stayed home! :)

yes it like when you first try and get a bear out of his cave. It great for the first few minutes and then the $%%&^
hits the fan.

I think I once saw on the program "Military Blunders" that the attack on Pearl Harbor was considered a great military blunder. I did not quite agree since the attack itself was extremely successful. The fall out did wake the "sleeping giant."

I have not read in detail what the Japanese High Command thought would happen post Pearl Harbor. I know that they were disappointed they had not caught the air craft carriers which in the long run proved to be linch pin around which the Japanese fortunes would begin to fail. Among a number of other miscalculations about American resolve. Was hubris combined with Bushido arrogance the cause for such a lack to consider the repercussions of attacking America?

Yes, you do sort of have to wonder what they were thinking. I believe their basic plans were to hurt the US as badly as possible and then establish a fortified perimeter which would bleed the Americans so badly that they'd eventually give up and let Japan keep its conquests. Any study of past American wars, however (with the exception of 1812) would show that they rarely accepted anything short of total victory.

I believe their basic plans were to hurt the US as badly as possible and then establish a fortified perimeter which would bleed the Americans so badly that they'd eventually give up and let Japan keep its conquests.

This was indeed the plan, as I understand it.

An adjunct to that plan was that they intended to bring the weakened US fleet to decisive combat. They were big on decisive combat. But the heart of the matter was full awareness that the US was a much stronger nation in terms of resources and capacity, combined with a deeply rooted belief that the US was also much weaker in terms of spirit, dedication and patience. So their plan was to hit the Pacific Fleet hard enough that it would take time to recover (Yamamato promised 6 months), and to use that time to do two things: 1) seize most or all of resource-rich European colonial possessions in Southeast Asia, and 2) build an island bastion-based perimeter and defense-in-depth across the Pacific. With that they expected the US to quickly tire of the casualties from taking islands and from fleet battles, and to eventually offer a compromise peace that would allow Japan to be the colonial ruler of "the Greater East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere".

I know that they were disappointed they had not caught the air craft carriers which in the long run proved to be linch pin around which the Japanese fortunes would begin to fail.

The Japanese had reasonably little recognition of the shortfalls of the Pearl Harbor attack. And quite reasonably so. They got their 6 months of freedom. They took just about everything they expected to take.

Their failure to damage or destroy two aircraft carriers was indeed a significant mis-step in their attack, but while it made a big difference in the course of the war in 1942, it hardly made any difference in the eventual outcome of the war.

If both Enterprise and Lexington had been damaged in the attack, even to the point of sinking, they probably would have been back in service within 4 or 5 months. Most of the battleships "sunk" in Pearl could have been back in that time, if the USN had not taken the opportunity of the re-fit/repair cycles to also do major upgrades. But even if the two Pearl carriers were hit so hard they were not repairable, that still left Saratoga, Hornet, Wasp and Yorktown, which all played significant roles in the Pacific actions of 1942.

More importantly there were 5 Essex-class carriers: Essex, Bonhomme Richard (renamed Yorktown), Intrepid, Cabot (renamed Lexington), and Bunker Hill, which had all already had their hulls layed down on the slips and would come to sea in 1943. And the new starts AFTER Pearl Harbor provided another 19 Essex class carriers in 1943/44, while the follow-on Ticonderoga class added another 13 even larger carriers. This doesn't even make mention of the smaller light carriers and escort carriers that the USN built by the dozens.

The IJN, by comparison, managed to complete all of 3 fleet carriers (4 if you include Shinano, which put to sea and sunk before it was actually completed), and about 10 light carriers and escort carriers (plus 2 battleships with aircraft decks) during the war.

There was nothing the Japanese could do at Pearl Harbor to prevent that overwhelming onslaught. They were terribly out-matched. The only condition necessary for their defeat was for the US to stay in the war.

-Mark
(aka: Mk 1)

In some ways the Pearl Harbor attack (along with the sinking of the British Prince of Wales and Repulse by aircraft a few days later) did the Americans a favor. It showed them just how dangerous air power could be and they re-thought their strategy accordingly. Most people don't know that less than two months after Pearl Harbor the Americans had assembled a new battle fleet of eight fully operational battleships on the west coast. So they could have still sought out that 'decisive' surface battle the pre-war admirals planned for. But they made no attempt to do so and made their carriers their main striking force.

Most people don't know that less than two months after Pearl Harbor the Americans had assembled a new battle fleet of eight fully operational battleships on the west coast. So they could have still sought out that 'decisive' surface battle the pre-war admirals planned for.

Interesting.

Would you happen to know the ships in this new battle fleet? I could probably assemble a likely list (there weren't that many US battleships that I could be too wrong), but if you already know of the list …

This might be an interesting what-if for wargaming. What if this new battle fleet had indeed sailed on to Hawaii. Imagine the clase that might have developed at Midway, if:
a) The new USN Battle Fleet was present
b) The Hiryu was not found, struck and destroyed by the second USN attack.
c) The IJN, believing that the carrier odds are now even or better (they believed they had sunk two USN carriers, not one, and they did not believe Yorktown was present to start with), do not withdraw but continue forward with their main force and their invasion force, drawing the USN battle fleet into action

Probably the biggest battleship vs. battleship action one could conceive of in a "not-actually-too-far-from-reality" what-if.

-Mark
(aka: Mk 1)

ScottWashburn it's highly unlikely that less than 2 months after Pearl Harbor we could've assembled 8 fully oberational Battleships on the West Coast.

I know for a fact that the only other Battleship on the west coast after the attack was the Battleship Colorado.

I not sure where the 3-New Mexico's were and most of the 6 surviving BB's at Pearl needed several months of repairs before they saw action.

So can you tell me which US Battleships you're talking about?

Michael

PACFLT BB's After Pearl Harbor
PA, MD- lightly damaged
TN- Moderate damage
CO- In refit

NM, MS, ID arrived in theater 1/12/42
NC 6/10/42
SD 8/21/42
WS 8/28/42
IN 11/14/42
MA 11-19/42
(Not a comment on actual availability, just where they were).
I'd think they probably have 6 available 31-Jan-42, maybe 7 by Midway.
(From 'The Pacific War Online' US OOB pages)

I will have to check my sources. I read an article in a scholarly journal some years back about what was called "Task Force 1". It said that the US transferred pretty much every battleship in the Atlantic Fleet to the Pacific (there being no need for them in the Atlantic) and assembled eight fully operational BBs on the west coast. A Google search turns up nothing, however. I will look into this when I get home.

Okay, I found it!

"Task Force One: The Wasted Assets of the United States Pacific Battleship Fleet, 1942" by David C. Fuquea

Published in the Journal of Military History, October, 1997, Volume 61, Issue 4, Pgs 707-734.

link

In short, a mere 57 days after Pearl Harbor, the BBs Colorado (which had been undergoing a refit in Bremerton, Washington) and the Maryland, Pennsylvania, and Tennessee, had all been completely repaired and fitted with the latest radar and fire control systems.

By the beginning of March, these were joined by Idaho, Mississippi and New Mexico, transferred from the Atlantic. So that's seven battleships. I think maybe an eighth joined them later, but I could be wrong. Need to re-read the article!

Scott this Task Force if you can call them that was for the defence of the West Coast plus they only had 5 DD's and later the Long Island.

But in June or July Colorado and 1 other Battleship was detached and never came back,then the remainder sailed for Pearl Harbor and operated from there.

But I think the main factor was fuel and tankers which could go more than 12kts.

So you could say that this was much ado about nothing.

Looks about right, but there was a serious shortage of escorts on the West Coast, specifically San Francisco, where the battleships were kept. Desron2 of Desdiv 3 was in SF waters around that time. Porter, Cushing and Aaron Ward were there around May-June. Haven't been able to find out the id's of other destroyers in the area yet, but will continue to dig around.

Well, considering how things turned out I guess it was the right decision to keep them out of action. But they did exist and they were available.