"WW2 vehicles. How rare is too rare?" Topic

A lot of vehicles that we find in game documentation were conversions, custom-jobs and any of the "Fit this gun to that chassis" tweaks with production runs n the low hundreds or even a few dozen.

So how rare is too rare to consider for a game?

Given that a typical Late-war FoW game frequently includes more models of a certain tank than were historically manufactured, I think it is safe to say that if one was made, field a division of them!

I'm not worried about rare or not since we tend to play scenarios. If it's appropriate for the scenario and within historical bounds, it works for me.

Raylev – Good call, I guess the question is more for "what if" scenarios than specific historical actions.

Coyote – In a Steel Panthers campaign on the computer I realized that I had knocked out more Polish 7TP than were ever in service of the Polish army :/

Well, people field the Dicker Max which as I recall the Germans built exactly 2 of

I like to play with paper panzers, so a production run of 0 is fine with me.

Nothing is too rare to consider for a game. It's a game.

I try not to buy too many limited production vehicles. The German Puma armored car is an example. They produced 101. I'm thinking there are thousands on war game tables across the planet. So what did I do, I bought one. I play 1 vehicle = a platoon so I have at least 5% of the total.

Tough not to buy these limited production vehicles especially for the Germans.

I'm sure I'll pick up more limited types even though I know better.

I agree with deephorse.

Steel Panthers was an amazing game.

Everyone likes the big bad JagdTiger but it seems that less than 50 were made. I wouldn't be too happy if my opponent fielded a Panzer Division filled with them but one or two can make life interesting. But everything we game is just that, a game.

One of the pleasures of playing skirmishes or small, company or less actions is that you can field oddball vehicles in historically accurate numbers.

That being said, most of my WWII games feature plain old Shermans and Pz IV-Hs, with the odd Panther or Tiger in a guest role.

Anything cute enough to go on my table goes on my table =^,^=

And the Hipster Gamers are welcome to enjoy their games however they like.

For me it depends on the gamers as much as the playing pieces.

I have no objection to seeing (or putting) a rare item on the game board, as long as it is not on every game board every time I play.

Adding to a prior comment, I see nothing wrong with having to face down a Jagdtiger. Never seen a gamer try to make a division of 'em, so don't worry too much about that. But I have seen many gamers who bring Tiger IIs out on every late-war battlefield they play on. This drives me to game with other people.

I recall one game from a few years back … it was a pick-up game I set up with a gaming buddy on an open table at a con. We wanted to try a ruleset we were just getting used to for an infantry-heavy combined arms game (micro armor rules and games are very often dominated by armor). We agreed that we would each take a force built on a company of infantry with support vehicles and weapons. Because I was attacking, I could have a company of infantry with some support AND a company of tanks. We chose Autumn of 1943 on the Eastern Front … post Kursk Russians advancing across the Steppes. I was Russian, and took a company of T-34s and a platoon of SU-76s. He was German, and took a somewhat reduced company of infantry, a section of 2 AT guns, some sandbag emplacements, and a section of 2 AFVs.

I managed to fight my way across the bridge, my infantry pushing forward with SU-76s in support. Once the bridge was in my control I threw my T-34s across to flank his position, despite the AT guns still being active. Image my surprise when I get around his entrenched positions with my (few) surviving T-34s, only to come across … two Ferdinands!

In fact it was hilarious. I knew the guy, I knew his gaming style, we had played so many games by that point that I knew he didn't just always take ubertanks. I'd played half a dozen games with him where he had taken a force that was weaker than it could have been. It was kind of a point of pride between us when we managed to win a game with an insufficient force.

In fact he had set up for himself a choice of 4 different support packages, and thrown a die before the game to see what he got. He could have gotten a battery of StuGs (1,2), a battery of Marders (3,4), and platoon of Pz IVg's (5) or a section of Ferdinands (6). He got the 6, and decided not to set them up forward (where they might be swarmed/flanked), but back beyond the open fields on the other side of the river. He then had to contain himself for the half the game, knowing what would greet me if I ever did force the bridge and try to break out of the river-side cover. Now there I was, with 3 or 4 T-34s in a field and 4 SU-76s not yet in position to engage, against two Ferdi's at 1km range, and I had absolutely NO cover for my T-34s.

All I could do was stomp about and curse and moan. Of course he butchered me. And it was all in good fun. (And I kept the bridge.)

But if I had faced Ferdinands in every 1943 Eastern Front game he and I had played, it would not have been nearly so many games.

-Mark
(aka: Mk 1)

Scenario governs.

As I recall there were 100 Komsomolets Zis-30 sp 57mm conversions produced.

As someone stated in another thread a fraction of 1 percent of the AFVs employed by the Soviets even at that time period, let alone during the entire war.

However if gaming the Defense of Moscow in the winter of 41-42, they are a significant presence.

Then (depending on source) there were from 100 to about 350 T-34/57 produced. Again a small percentage. On the other hand they were built as tank hunters, so having the odd one show up during a scenario during the appropriate time period is historically accurate.

One Soviet tank brigade had over 20 of the 57mm T34s, so if gaming the action where they engaged Panzergruppe 2, a fair number would be reasonable :)

There were only 100 Matilda I made, but people don't seem to an issue fielding them as their one (and only) battle was so high profile.

I agree with deephorse.

You buy them and paint them, so you want to play them. And I like oddballs. That said, I have never had anybody object to using my Dianas instead of Marders. Probably because while they are rare, they are not super, pretty weak as a matter of fact.

I figure for a scenario, anything might do, given it was actually fielded in the number called for, and maybe if it might have been.
For building an army, I think it's better to build TO&E equipment, and then perhaps add on later.
But if you're buying armies by points, special precautions might be called for, lest what never actually got to a battlefield become a tabletop norm. I've seen requirements that normal units of the same general sort also be bought and restrictions on overall numbers. I'd also be in favor of an availability die roll: "OOPS! on this number your ubertank is not available due to a parts shortage. You may--or perhaps may not--make another selection."

deephorse +1

And GHQ makes a number of WWII vehicles that only made it to 1 or 2 prototypes of literally never made it off the drawing boards. link They even have scenarios … PDF link

@ 14th NJ Vol

I get irritated by people who field unrealistic forces for any era if the idea is thereby to win the game.

The SdKfz 234 was as you say built in tiny numbers, fewer than 350, with the /3 and /4 75mm gun-armed versions rarest of all. Despite that, I think they're fine in games, because they don't unbalance it any more than having a PaK 40 (20,000 built) and a 232 (several thousand produced) would do. The same is true of things like the Ostwind.

So in your shoes I wouldn't feel bad about fielding them.

I suppose it matters less for rules with generic armour classes – light, medium, heavy. If your prototype uber-tank does n't have any greater tabletop value than a Panther or a Comet then you're not compromising the game, but I still prefer to see 'ordinary' kit in viable units.

If they look cool, the more the merrier (hence the Pumas).

They do look pretty cool don't they?

I get irritated by people who field unrealistic forces for any era if the idea is thereby to win the game.

What !? No B-52s at Waterloo !?

Am I wrong? I thought the Americans had a full Division of Super Pershings at the end of WW2.

Am I wrong? I thought the Americans had a full company of Pershings at the end of WW2.

There, JMcCarroll, I fixed it for you.

And no, they didn't.

;)

-Mark
(aka: Mk 1)

For one-off scenarios, I would say that there is no such a thing as too obscure when it comes to vehicles (or weapons).

That said, if the rare or exotic elements are over-used they may start losing their flavour.

I play scenarios, so whatever was there is what I need to field.

JagdTigers for instance. I've got a scenario where 3 of them where fielded – so I need three of them. Nice scenario too, JagdTigers are like a fire and forget weapon, fire once and then forget them.

OOps – make that SturmTigers.

> What !? No B-52s at Waterloo !?

that would be ABBA…

"> What !? No B-52s at Waterloo !?
that would be ABBA…"

It could also be Stonewall Jackson. (really, check it out – early 60s country singer!)

;-]

B

Blutarski
Oh dear I think I have that one on vinyl somewhere, what can I say I went through a country phase in my youth. There was a girl involved and it did not end well.

Fatman

I don't have any rare vehicles in my collection, aircraft now that's a different matter, but wouldn't mind if a player fielded some. As long as the game stat's reflect its faults as well as it's advantages of course.

Fatman

If a scenario requires/justifies, then theres no problem.
What I find interesting is having played in some huge games with historical OBs where 1 stand equals 1 platoon, and rare (highly effective) vehicles were fielded, they often had an impact out of all proportion to their numbers. examples such as 2 or 3 stands of Marders (out of 2 or 300) in 42 desert games, likewise a few 88's, or even a few matilda IIs stopping
maybe 10 times their number manouvring. Same with 2 or 3 KV1's cropping up in early Eastern front games.

I agree with deephorse.

I have an American Pershing battalion for WWII including a SuperPershing. I also have a JagdTiger battalion of 45 vehicles too. And 4 K5E railway guns, and many other odd and unusual US and German and even Soviet vehicles.

Mike Bunkermeister Creek
Bunker Talk blog

I play skirmish so it is easy to slip in some random cool vehicle. Also, I usually only deploy one them on the table.

I try to keep it historically accurate though.

If you're playing "what if's" then the sky is the limit.

We play scenarios, so that keeps the rarities under control- and it helps that I'm cheap enough that I won't buy a model for a one-off game.

Unfortunately, I took the FOW org charts at face value when putting together 1940 France battles and I bought a full platoon of Matilda I's before reading that they were hardly used. Doh! So I'll have to hold my nose & play through those few scenarios when we get there.

Always liked ABBA …

And the E-100 link …

Dynaman…ABBA and the B52s on the same bill? Now that's what I call a show.

Wargames models often appear on tables in inverse proportion to their rarity :-)

link

Regards, Chris

I love the vehicles that are "rare" on the tabletop! BT-5's, T-26's, T-38's, as well as SdKfz 222's, Panzer I through III's, Panhards 178's, Somuas and so on!

I like the early war stuff. Like '40-'41 …

How rare is too rare? If it bleeds profusely on the plate and it's cold in the middle, then it's too rare.

uglyfatbloke for the win! Yeah, steaks need to be at least 100degF in the middle when served.

I'm slowly working on a Weird War German force, built up around the Kerberos Panzer Jager (infantry wearing full body armor). So I have gray trucks for Stalingrad, dunkelgelb halftracks, and I'm going to add green Katchen tracked APCs and E50s with nightvision gear. Plus a pair of "Me462" that are actually Space Battleship Yamato 2199 models.

Folk are strange about rarities. You rarely see engineering vehicles yet they were often present. But stupid large tanks are often used. Personally most of the fun games are with the basic stuff. Hard to get a good game with a super heavy. If they work (which is rare as they usually are unreliable) and they can get there, bridges get to be a problem with super heavies, they can be devastating. However they may also be classes as a high value target so may be targeted by aircraft in disproportionate numbers.

Not so bothered by rare stuff that is similar to common stuff, but to me I see no point, it's more of a modeller thing than a player thing.

Thank you Lion; I'll be here all week…weddings and Bar Mitzvahs also.