Alxbates | 28 Oct 2016 10:07 a.m. PST |
I've got a worldbuilding question for the folks here – Can you recommend some good sci-fi or fantasy novels that show integrated, pluralistic, stable (in the long term), and relatively just & decent societies that involve wildly differing sentient species? I'm not looking for a Star Trek utopia, I don't think any society that exists will ever be perfect, but I don't want it to be some hellish dystopia based on slavery and exploitation, either. I ask because I'm doing some worldbuilding of my own for my setting, "Azor", and I'm really curious to see how other authors have done it. A lot of D&D-style games sort of handwave it away – dwarves are grumpy, elves are snooty and so on, but they all look pretty human, they can live in similar sorts of houses & eat similar food. Heck, their mouths are all formed the same & they can all speak each others' languages relatively easily. But how do you create laws to deal with a species that lives for 600 years? How do taxes or property ownership work when a single elf can own a building for centuries – not handing it down through his family, but the one guy. Or, what about abandoned property? The Cthonic species comes back to find his house occupied by squatters – "I was only gone for 400 years!! Get out of my house! You're trespassing, burglarizing my home, and vandalizing it!" And there are other complications – what about a species that's as much more intelligent than us, as we are to chimpanzees? It's only a few percentage points different genetically, but the difference is huge. Or species that are significantly stronger, or more aggressive, or strictly carnivorous. I'm having trouble imagine an integrated society that manages to be peaceful and not miserable. I've seen some good sci-fi books that address the topic – Ian Banks' Culture novels, the Damned trilogy by Alan Dean Foster. I haven't seen much in fantasy – Terry Pratchett addressees it head-on in a couple of his Discworld novels, but he's really the only author I can think of. What's your favorite book (or RPG setting!) that addresses this topic? Can you recommend any fantasy or sci-fi novels? Any worldbuilding suggestions? A lot of my ideas are only half-formed at this time, and I have a pretty good idea of the direction I want them to head in, but I'd still like to see any examples of it that are out there in the world. Any recommendations of games/RPG settings/novels would be appreciated! -Alex in Alaska |
KTravlos | 28 Oct 2016 10:34 a.m. PST |
Hmm the old French cartoon "Once upon a time in Space" might be the thing to look at. I remember that while it had star trek elements, in one episode they try to integrate with a very aggressive race of lizard-people and it goes bad. So while hopeful, it recognizes that this is a long and hard process. link |
robert piepenbrink | 28 Oct 2016 10:40 a.m. PST |
Try Poul Anderson. In particular the Polesotechnic League stories and among them People of the Wind. But Anderson was always interested in how evolution affected psychology and social development. Fun reading for its own sake, and you also see in Dos Smith's "Lensman" books discussion about what the minimums had to be to integrate vastly different species in the same organization--and where the breakpoints were. Different levels of intelligence. Try Christopher Anvil's "Centran" stories. We average much brighter than the Centrans--but they also have something we lack. I'd have to figure at some point,though--can't breathe the same air, can't take the same gravity,one side's intelligence not up to the other one's acceptable adult minimum--you're not going to get an integrated society: you're going to get separate societies at best bound by trade, mutual respect or perhaps military alliances. And we and the dogs may have very different understandings about our relationship. |
boy wundyr x | 28 Oct 2016 10:42 a.m. PST |
There's Walter Jon Williams' Dread Empire's Fall series – link – although the stability is (at least initially) forced. I'd have to think about fantasy more, if such a case is around, I half suspect it will be from 1960s-70s fantasy, before the mania with trilogies and D&D-esque novels. I think even sci-fi examples are more likely from that time period. |
Alxbates | 28 Oct 2016 11:17 a.m. PST |
Robert Piepenbrink – Yeah, that's where I'm headed, at least for some of the races involved. Integrated in that they live nearby and peacefully, and interact for things like natural disasters & a yearly trade festival, but, for the most part, they live apart. By choice, not by law. |
wminsing | 28 Oct 2016 11:31 a.m. PST |
To be fair, the 'friendly but live apart' system is a classic fantasy trope; the fantasy Good-Guy Kingdom with Humans in the cities and countryside, Elves living in the woods and Dwarves in the mountains and Hobbits in their own commune but they all obey the King is pretty typical in D&D-esque stories and settings. -Will |
Legbiter | 28 Oct 2016 11:38 a.m. PST |
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wminsing | 28 Oct 2016 11:50 a.m. PST |
D&D itself does tackle of a few of these questions, depending on which edition and sourcebooks you're looking at. For example, one of the more recent books talk about how it is far more common for Dwarves and Elves to establish friendship/patronage/etc with human families, rather than individual humans. The friendship transfers from parent to child to grandchild and so forth. The dangerous thing is that the Dwarf/Elf often makes assumptions about the character and nature of their human friends based on how their ancestors acted; which may not be accurate! -Will |
robert piepenbrink | 28 Oct 2016 12:15 p.m. PST |
I hate to bring reality into an SF/fantasy discussion, but wminsing reminded me of something. If you go back to classical Greece, you'll find certain families which have a relationship with other city-states. Embassies and ambassadors are for special occasions--which is still true down to the Renaissance. But if you're a Spartan or Corinthian in Athens and have trouble--or maybe even a place to stay--you go to one of the three or four families which are recognized friends of your homeland, and there are, similarly, Spartan families who would do as much for Athenian and Corinthian visitors. (Naturally, if you are such a family and your fellow citizens are howling for your blood, might be a good time to visit a place where a lot of people owe you favors.) Intermarriage was common, and I know of Athenian boys who were put through the Spartan military training because of the family relationship. Something to think about. |
emckinney | 28 Oct 2016 12:25 p.m. PST |
Steven Brust's Vlad Taltos series in fantasy. The humans are definitely getting the short end of the stick. Sector General series? Peace Force? Interesting thoughts here link |
PrivateSnafu | 28 Oct 2016 1:19 p.m. PST |
The problem you are having is why I have always disliked half-orcs and absolutely despised Tieflings in D&D. Humankinds genocidal tendencies just never made this believable even in a fantasy setting. |
Hafen von Schlockenberg | 28 Oct 2016 1:45 p.m. PST |
As it happens, I just finished Larry Niven,s Draco Tavern collection. Interesting perspective. |
ColCampbell | 28 Oct 2016 1:54 p.m. PST |
I'd suggest H. Beam Piper's "Little Fuzzy" series (3 books by Pournelle plus a fourth by another author) and his Uller Uprising novel. link Jim |
Kropotkin303 | 28 Oct 2016 2:04 p.m. PST |
Perdido Street Station by China Miéville is a good example of vastly different races living together. Insectoids with humans and there is an avian race as well. It would seem that the races co-exist because they need each other and the city ( not the world) is like an oasis. China Miéville does statify the society somewhat, but it is a good example of a "workable" multi-race society. |
Brian Smaller | 28 Oct 2016 2:13 p.m. PST |
Anything Tekumelian. Humans and friendly non-humans live together and integrate in that setting. Non-friendly non-humans – not so much. |
MHoxie | 28 Oct 2016 2:58 p.m. PST |
Seconding Tekumel. Also try Talislanta, as it's been made freeware by the author: talislanta.com |
DesertScrb | 28 Oct 2016 4:33 p.m. PST |
A Fire Upon the Deep by Vernor Vinge. |
Rubber Suit Theatre | 29 Oct 2016 3:30 p.m. PST |
Immortality is actually a lot easier to deal with than other issues. Twinings of London was chartered in 1706 and are still selling tea, even if their Earl Grey is now foul chemically-flavored swill (their English Breakfast is quite nice, though). Ironbeard Inc. and Sirithiel Holdings, Ltd. could function under a similar legal framework. Beings considerably more intellectually capable than human standard probably wouldn't consider us capable of legally responsible personhood, but might consider us to be decent pets once we've been neutered and had our shots. |
Alxbates | 29 Oct 2016 3:54 p.m. PST |
Thanks for all the suggestions folks! It's much appreciated – I've added quite a few new titles to my Amazon queue! "And we and the dogs may have very different understandings about our relationship." My favorite line from this particular topic :) |
Hafen von Schlockenberg | 01 Nov 2016 7:09 a.m. PST |
Dave Barry pointed out a fundamental mistake we make when we say about our dog "He thinks he's a person": Dogs don't think they're people; they think people are dogs. |
Yellow Admiral | 01 Nov 2016 2:05 p.m. PST |
A dog is a person. It has a personality, doesn't it? :-) I think we can look to examples in the natural world to help fill out fictional ones. Most mammals, many birds, and some fish and reptiles can be viewed as people too. They aren't simian, so they have different or even alien concerns and motivations, but if you get to know these animals as individuals, they have unique personalities that differentiate them from other members of their species. Humans tend to ignore species we consider "less intelligent", and most fiction conforms to this prejudice, but most ambulatory species with any capacity for independent action have developed a capacity to learn, and therefore to have a personality. Species in a shared environment interact and develop methods of survival that win or avoid conflicts. Most inter-species interactions are defined by resources. Predator/prey relationships are too obvious for comment, but most species also have less direct competitions for things like space and nutrients. Humans began as a land-locked, grassland species, but now encroach on nearly every biome on the planet. So, some examples from that line of thought: - Farmers have endless conflicts with other species that attack their crops, even though those species pose no direct threats to humans. Think about these conflicts from another species' POV. How does a fox view a farm? An eagle? A crow? A rat? A lion? A hyena? A wildebeest?
- I have an ongoing conflict with a local wood rat about resource usage in my garage (MY garage, dammit!). I'm better with tools, so I've locked him out of some of the space I want him to stop chewing and pooping on, but he still makes strong claims to the attached carport because he works from home and is around a lot more than I am. Meanwhile, I have no quibbles (or even much contact) with his more conservative neighbors who live in the surrounding woods, so thousands of nearby wood rats get along without any contact with humans and only traditional conflicts with canids, felids, reptiles and raptors. They may view my obstreperous garage invader as an eccentric and unacceptable risk-taker, since their homes look/feel/smell more "normal" in wood rat culture than his, and their risks seem more familiar and therefore less stressful.
- Cetacians may not "know about" us in the same way we know them, but they have adapted to our presence, and different pods of them have adapted in different ways to the world about them, living in different areas, eating different foods, etc. This brief overview of a few Pacific orca pods is just the tip of the iceberg on this subject. By now, some of their adaptations have to include avoiding conflict with humans and their boats, nets and fishing lines.
A few more examples from fiction that might be useful: Gregory Benford's "Galactic Center" series explores how different species interact with, assist, manipulate and fight each other, even considering the ways species have to evolve themselves in order to survive a conflict with a more powerful adversary. The main antogonist species in the series is a machine culture, but it's been imbued with a sort of racial personality that includes evolution and adaptation to new circumstances. All species in this series perform a lot of "retreating to a new niche" to survive, which is pretty much what happens in the real world. Some Studio Ghibli movies actually deal with this topic a bit. The Secret World of Arrietty actually delves deeply into the concept of two intelligent species coexisting in the same world, Princess Mononoke explores inter-racial conflicts (and also more traditional intra-species, inter-tribal conflicts), and even My Neighbor Totoro and Spirited Away touch on the topic a bit (with huge doses of handwaving). None of these are deeply fleshed out, because they're only 2-hour movies, but they each give the impression of a world inhabited by numerous intelligent species. - Ix |
Sargonarhes | 01 Nov 2016 7:31 p.m. PST |
I can only think of the anime Crest of the Stars. While the Abh are technically human they are genetically enhanced humans that are born from mixing the DNA of the partners to create offspring instead of natural child birth. The Abh rule an empire with Abh and natural humans and most coexist peacefully. Although you'll occasionally find an Abh with a superiority complex. Then the series goes into a war with 3 enemy empires the United Mankind, in Banner of the Stars. I suppose later Macross series could count as well, as after the original humans and Zentradei are now on the same side. Then Macross Delta introduces a whole new range of other humanoid aliens into the story. |
Alxbates | 02 Nov 2016 7:47 p.m. PST |
That all sounds like excellent reading! Thanks very much! Added them all to the Amazon queue :) |
KTravlos | 03 Nov 2016 6:40 a.m. PST |
Yellow Admiral and Sargonarhes. Good catches there! |
tnjrp | 21 Nov 2016 6:31 a.m. PST |
For European graphic novels -- not necessary of great availability in English -- Valerian and Sillage have many examples of multiple species coexisting peacefully (and sometimes forcibly). They do tend to focus on humanoids with rather specific set of requirements gravity-, atmo- etc. wise however. Namely the same that humans have. C.J.Cherryh's Chanur novels also have several species working together in a loose coalition but they don't seem to generally form multispecies societies as such so it's more of a "friendly-but-apart" scenario. |
Elenderil | 21 Nov 2016 3:30 p.m. PST |
Going back to Humans and Dogs don't forget that relationships will vary over time. It has only taken 15,000 years from Wolf to a domestic dog which has evolved enough to read our pheromone markers and body language for emotional states. I suggest that initially there would be friction between two sentient species but that one or both would adjust their behaviour to allow the two to get along, if they didn't kill each other first! With Dogs and Humans the starting point was mutual advantage the dog got food and security, the human got a guard animal who aided in hunting. Without that mutuality one side or the other would not have allowed the relationship to develop. Human and Alien relations would need to have those points of enduring mutual advantage. If one side brings nothing to the table why get along with them? They are either irrelevant or taking up valuable real estate. The only thing that then stops one side from exploiting the other is a balance of risk to both parties that doesn't outweigh the advantage of violence. Of course that's simply a humanocentric view. For an Alien race with a different world view the psychology would lead to different drives and triggers. Poul Andersen was very good at exploring those differences as are Larry Niven and Jerry Parnell in The Mote in God's Eye. |
Legion 4 | 23 Nov 2016 3:48 p.m. PST |
A dog is a person. It has a personality, doesn't it? I like dogs waaay better than most humans … |