deadhead | 26 Oct 2016 5:10 a.m. PST |
Just so I can beat Tango to it, as he will still be asleep across the Atlantic. New Perry releases for the French in Egypt range. Love that trumpeter. For me the real attraction is the conversion potential. First figures in the Perry range with the long tailed coat, cut away to reveal the waistcoat. Many a head swap possible here……….
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Silent Pool | 26 Oct 2016 6:42 a.m. PST |
I don't suppose Tango01 sleeps at all. Like Santas' elves he works all through the night and day finding glorious things for us. He'll post this soon enough – treat this period as the lull before the … But congratulations, you have surpassed him already by offering up your opinion on what you have posted about. Well done. |
Durban Gamer | 26 Oct 2016 7:46 a.m. PST |
I find the flag useful – 2nd hand info I know, but not easy to get info on French cavalry flag designs in Egypt? |
deadhead | 26 Oct 2016 8:15 a.m. PST |
They are "different" and imaginative. I just wonder if the Perrys might not think how little work these (in the tall boots anyway) would need to become earlier Carabiniers, Grenadiers or Dragoons of the Garde etc. Just remove a cross strap or two, add some aigulettes or fringed epaulettes etc, use the heads they already have, from later style figures and the heavy cavalry horses. I suspect the officer is a one piece casting with the horse. Hopefully the others lift off. If so, I like the coat tails draped over the rounded valise. Come on Tango, where are you? Tango erwacht! (grin) |
von Winterfeldt | 26 Oct 2016 8:41 a.m. PST |
great detail, for example the water bags at the side of the horse – also the officer on Mamelucke saddle |
von Winterfeldt | 27 Oct 2016 5:26 a.m. PST |
for the cavalry standard see also Rigo plate 209 |
Durban Gamer | 27 Oct 2016 7:49 a.m. PST |
Hallo von Winterfeldt. I did a search on the net. Closest I got to the plate 209 was ebay had sold a copy of it and then removed the image! Could you perhaps direct me to a link? I'd like to paint my French in Egypt cavalry stands accurately! Did Rigo by any chance do plates for the French hussars in Egypt? |
von Winterfeldt | 27 Oct 2016 8:02 a.m. PST |
Hi Durban Gamer I have a scan of it -I will put it up here in due course, Rigo did a lot about the Armée d'Orient in different magazines, also a good source, in fact one of the best in my view, are the Rousselot plates from the Musée d'Armée in Paris which can be downloaded from the net. Also in case of search for a lot of Rigo plates I would suggest to go to The Armchair General Forum – Napoleonics – which have tons of them. |
deadhead | 27 Oct 2016 10:32 a.m. PST |
von W, Can I sound you out as I have huge respect for you? I have never noticed you to get hostile in your responses and you got my vote as most helpful contributor. So, I have avoided these "free" sites like Armchair General Forum and Pinterest, thinking that, the moment I give them my e mail and register I will be bombarded with Ukrainian girls wanting to see to my every need…(as happened when I went to AGF tonight….perfectly reasonable and charming looking young ladies, with splendid physiques). Basically are they "safe"? I would rather pay, as I do here, for a quality service. Maybe this should be a new topic anyway, but I cannot hijack this topic, as I started it. Tango1 has missed this, we will never see him post this new release…I believe it. (grin) and how good is that trumpeter? |
von Winterfeldt | 27 Oct 2016 12:55 p.m. PST |
No need to worry about the Armchair general forum, such highly respected members like dibble are there as well, those scans put up are by enthusiasts who like to share their knowledge with others – I did not register with pinterest. but maybe we do speak about different fora see the forum I do mean link You have to register to be able to download the scans. |
von Winterfeldt | 27 Oct 2016 2:04 p.m. PST |
Here the promised immage
Now we have to find a good producer for a paper standard, but not in the overextended versions so popular |
42flanker | 28 Oct 2016 1:47 a.m. PST |
Um. I thought the French dragoons wore felt caps in Egypt; Or was that only in the later stages, as the British force arrived in 1801. |
deadhead | 28 Oct 2016 3:45 a.m. PST |
I know almost nothing about this period, but I do notice that the US company Brigade Games gives all its French in Egypt Dragoons the helmet rather than a bicorne. link pages 3 and 4 especially |
Scharnachthal | 28 Oct 2016 7:12 a.m. PST |
Maybe 42flanker doesn't mean bicornes at all but actually caps similar to the type worn by some infantry? Have seen a single reconstruction of a dragon who seems to wear such a headgear by Patrice Courcelle (Tranié/Carmigniani, Bonaparte. La Campagne d'Egypte, p.38, plate fig.8) but I really can't tell whether it's based on some extant helmet or contemporary picture or description…
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deadhead | 28 Oct 2016 8:42 a.m. PST |
Well I wonder if this image might have inspired the Perrys? The officer's rig and the horse's harness seem very familiar? Mamelukes!
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42flanker | 28 Oct 2016 4:46 p.m. PST |
Well, as a start there is the de Loutherbourg's 1802 canvas of the Landings at Aboukir in March 1801. This shows the French dragoons in short green jackets and felt caps without peaks that we might term shakos. Can't lay my hand on textual refs just at the minute. Lovely models nonetheless |
Scharnachthal | 29 Oct 2016 1:53 a.m. PST |
42flanker I'm unable to recognize any dragoons on this painting but perhaps you can offer some large size image detail? Then, of course, the question arises how reliable an artist like de Loutherbourg would be as a documentarist and uniformologist when it comes to French uniforms (especially when made more or less ad hoc during the Egyptian campaign)… |
Scharnachthal | 29 Oct 2016 3:26 a.m. PST |
deadhead "how good is that trumpeter?" Courcelle's trumpeter of the 14e dragons, 1799-1800 (from the source mentioned above, fig.7):
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Durban Gamer | 29 Oct 2016 3:36 a.m. PST |
Von Winterfeldt, I want to thank you warmly for your trouble in posting up that most useful pic of the dragoon. Only aspect of the Egyptian campaign I've had difficulty researching is the French cavalry flags. Should I go with the same three vertical bars style for the Hussars, or rather the "cut off corner" style used by the French infantry (I believe exclusively) in the campaign? |
42flanker | 29 Oct 2016 3:42 a.m. PST |
Top left in melee with men of 42nd French cavalry wearing short green jackets and what appear to be Hussar caps. Loutherbourg was known for his attention to detail and his preliminaary studies- witness the many sketches of British grenadiers and light infantry for his two Warley Camp canvasses of the late 1770s. Ditto the Siege of Valenciennes of 1794. He wasn't able to sketch soldiers from life in Egypt, British or French, and there are some details up for discussion re the Aboukir canvas. However the detail of the campaign dress of the French dragoons is not the sort of generalised boob that might be made by an artist who is drawing on an innaccurate, generalised image to fill a background. As a de facto court artist, he would undoubtedly have spoken to men who had been present. Although I can't give you refs just now, the detail seems to be supported textually. Try Mackesy's book, maybe. |
Scharnachthal | 29 Oct 2016 4:33 a.m. PST |
42flanker Short green jackets and "hussar" caps sounds like chasseurs à cheval to me… Anyway, without further evidence every discussion is moot. As for de Loutherbourg: I really don't think that his representations of French soldiers range on the same level as his representations of the Brits. These are two pair of shoes. Of course, he had ample opportunity to sketch and accurately represent British soldiers but clearly the same is not true regarding the French. Whether or not he had spoken to men who had been there remains open ("undoubtedly") but even if he did this does not mean that he would have been able to reconstruct the actual French uniforms from mere hearsay or, at best, based on some rough sketches (if there were any) by men who hardly would have had the time to clearly see and describe their enemies in all necessary detail. No, I won't go to the bother of hunting for books for which I don't even get proper bibliographic information and which, apparently, just "seem to support" whatever…If you got the book, quote from it. Thanks. |
42flanker | 29 Oct 2016 8:40 p.m. PST |
Moot, indeed. What was I thinking? |
von Winterfeldt | 30 Oct 2016 12:46 p.m. PST |
The French dragoons clearly kept helmets with horsehair tails, some seemingly made of leather, as you can see on the comments by the Perrys, a good source is the correspondance of Daure – the only contemporary source showing the peculiar "Kleber" uniforms is Chasseriau |
Part time gamer | 30 Oct 2016 11:41 p.m. PST |
"Nap" period looks AMAZING in 28mm on the game table and when I can get to a Con, I never fail to check out a few games if just for the 'eye candy'. However due to it being such a colorful period for the various armies, I'd never venture into that range. The hands could never do such detail justice. But I must admit, this period, the AWI, the WSS and such are so very tempting, espcially with so many now available in plasic (my weakness). |
Scharnachthal | 31 Oct 2016 2:13 a.m. PST |
Best picture of de Loutherbourg's Aboukir painting I could find so far, black and white representation only, but clear enough to see that the dragoons (yes, they are dragoons) are wearing helmets with flowing horse hair crests. Can't recognize jackets either, to me these are coats with tails (Tranié/Carmigniani, op.cit., p.238). Detail:
Same here, on this contemporary coloured engraving representing the battle of Alexandria (21 March 1801) by Mitan and Turner after lieutenant Willemin (Tranié/Carmigniani, p.254): Dragoons wearing helmets with horsehair crests and tailed coats. Detail:
And another painting by de Loutherbourg representing the same battle. On the left in the background French dragoons wearing crested helmets and tailed coats (magnify via Wikipedia entry; top magnification there):
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Scharnachthal | 31 Oct 2016 2:27 a.m. PST |
The French dragoons clearly kept helmets with horsehair tails, some seemingly made of leather, as you can see on the comments by the Perrys The Perrys say: "based on very newly discovered contemporary pictorial evidence". Can't see a reference to this evidence, though. Do you know which evidence they are talking about? |
von Winterfeldt | 31 Oct 2016 5:43 a.m. PST |
" Only aspect of the Egyptian campaign I've had difficulty researching is the French cavalry flags. " Yes – an incredible difficult subject – I am sorry to say that my knowledge about this subject is very poor to non – existent as well. To the Rigo plate – the marechal de logis shouldn't be armed with a dragoon musket. @Scharnachthal Ask the Perrys – most likley new Chasseriau plates covering the dragons. I have to say the Perrys, or here Alan Perry, do much more than average research (in fact in this case state of the art) to produce "mere" wargaming figures which become by such collectors items by themselves. Lucky us to have such dedicated sculptors. |
Scharnachthal | 31 Oct 2016 11:28 a.m. PST |
The Perrys are not notable for being serious historians. Sometimes, they are carried away by their fantasies. I just say: EA34 Swiss horns and bear: "… There are contemporary accounts of bears acting almost as mascots in front of troops from Berne. Whether they actually were used in battle is open to debate, but there is one original manuscript showing this." Ridiculous (read my extensive answer to that nonsense on the Medieval Discussion board: TMP link ) When they claim that their figures have been sculpted based on brand-new pictorial evidence they should present this evidence to the public. Unrequested. Everything else is not credible. "Most likely" is just not enough… I'd also like to know what source Courcelle used for his reconstruction. The same as the Perrys? The interesting thing is that his dragon helmet resembles very much the Kléber style helmet as shown for e.g. the 88e de ligne, while the Perry variety is just the usual design of dragon helmets but with a leather cap instead of a metal one. the only contemporary source showing the peculiar "Kleber" uniforms is Chasseriau I know the picture (the one showing the 88e de ligne, I suppose), but I couldn't find this reference to "Chasseriau" so far. Where did you find it? |
Scharnachthal | 31 Oct 2016 12:29 p.m. PST |
Found it. Here, illustration between pp.192 and 193; article pp.193-200: link Arthur Chassériau is by no means a contemporary of Napoleon but of the author of the article, Margerand, … link The illustration is said to be contemporary, though, Chassériau is the man who made it available to Margerand… |
Scharnachthal | 01 Nov 2016 2:42 a.m. PST |
Durban Gamer According to Pierre Charrié, Drapeaux & Étendards de la Révolution à l'Empire, apart from the 14e dragons and the dromedary regiment whose standards most likely were identical to those of the 14e dragons, all dragoon, chasseurs à cheval and hussar regiments of the Armée d'Orient appear to have carried the standards they had received on 22 September 1797 when being with the Armée d'Italie. How they looked like exactly seems to be unknown. Regarding the flag of the 14e dragons as shown by Rigo (after an original drawing by Hollander who saw the flag in the Musée de l'Artillerie), the tricolour design was used by the 1st squadron only. The flags of the 2nd, 3rd and 4th squadrons were red, light blue, and green, respectively. |
von Winterfeldt | 03 Mar 2017 7:41 a.m. PST |
Adolfo Ramos does standards for the AdO Dragons, you seemingly have to tell him the number of the regiment link also he does the colours for the demi – brades including the légères link |