Judge Doug | 25 Oct 2016 6:33 a.m. PST |
Why do some UK online retailers still charge VAT to overseas customers? This has bothered me for a long time, and is more of a "deadly consumer sin" to me than charging percentage-based shipping costs. There's no reason for US customers to be paying into the UK VAT system when we are not part of it. It seems the smartest retailers know this and deduct it, and because of that, I spend a lot of money with them. Some retailers refuse to remove the VAT – to the point that they intentionally ignore questions about removing VAT. This in effect just becomes extra money for them, because VAT doesn't need to be collected when selling. Isn't this also illegal in some way? (There's also no reason for percentage-based shipping costs – it's become an interest of mine to weigh a package sent via Royal Mail and then see how much I was overcharged for shipping – often times I've been charged 400% or more of the actual cost) I can tell that, anecdotally, I spend far less money with companies who do not remove VAT, or charge percentage-based shipping, or the worst, do both. After Brexit I've probably pumped over a thousand earth dollars into the UK economy. Here is an example of the number of orders I have made with some select companies in the last few months: Bartertown/Facebook/TMP sales – actual shipping cost – 20+ shipments? £100.00 GBP's to private sellers (used/oop models) Wayland – free shipping – 8 orders £614.55 GBP Perry – no VAT, charges 25% shipping – 2 orders £115.06 GBP Front Rank – no VAT, charges 25% shipping – 1 order £51.46 GBP Artizan Designs – refused to remove VAT, charges 25% shipping – 1 order £28.00 GBP Now, Artizan is the primary example here. I tried to contact him, told him I wanted to order a ton of stuff (I had 12 packs in my cart at one point) so how do I get a VAT refund, and he said just to order from Brigade. Now, I refuse to order from Brigade because they've been a disorganized chaotic rude mess at the last two Historicons, plus the prices are significantly higher than ordering through Artizan. I told Artizan this, and asked how I would get VAT removed, and the questions were ignored (21 days now since I asked). Because I was paying 20% more thanks to VAT (and yet this was still less than Brigade's prices, btw), I bit the bullet and ordered only the packs I absolutely needed at minimum – just 4. So simply because I was paying a 20% tax that I shouldn't be paying, Artizan lost the sales for 12 packs and only got the sales for 4. I'll get the remaining figures I was going to get, as other sculpts from other manufacturers for much cheaper. Meanwhile I've spent more with Perry and Front Rank, despite the high shipping, precisely because they don't charge me VAT. Perry will be getting another order in the next few weeks as I think I've decided to get a FFL WW2 army due to the low low pound value and the VAT removal. And, of course, I've spent an absurd amount of money with Wayland because their discount, and the free shipping threshold keeps me coming back. But Artizan will simply not get any more of my money. Nor will any other UK company that refuses to remove VAT. So what is the deal? Are some UK companies just lazy, and don't feel like doing the work? Don't want the business? I've heard some theories that they are trying to drive sales to their US distributors, but at this point most of them are significantly more expensive than ordering direct from the UK. |
Timmo uk | 25 Oct 2016 6:55 a.m. PST |
P&P charges are not just the cost of the postage but the materials used and the time taken to package the order. I expect packing materials cost double in the UK what they do in the USA, at a guess. As many things do. Brexit has yet to happen – we are probably about two plus years away from it. If the news today is accurate the UK exports have leapt massively due to the weak pound. Hurrah! We need your money – keep spending it. As to VAT – not sure where the legality of it lies. As you write they should remove it but then they could say airmail packages have to have extra wrapping to claw it back. It also adds a horrible level of paperwork on their VAT records which is a pain in the neck for them so I can see why they aren't too keen on encouraging non UK orders and want to drive sales through their existing supply network – much easier for them. So yes they may well not want the business. So whilst it is frustrating for you and many others and possibly indicating illegal practise it wouldn't be illegal to add a surcharge for overseas orders as long as they were explicit about doing so up-front. Decades ago I worked in the hobby industry as a teenager and while the company I worked for allowed visits in person by prior arrangement they could be a pain if somebody only wanted an handful of figures but wanted to talk for an hour or more. We tried to limit it to folks who were picking up big orders. The Perrys operate a slightly different business model as they are in the position where sculpting costs them time but other than materials it isn't an expense to them. They also sell below what they could charge and subsidise the postage on many orders. I only like to buy very small amounts and I pay less for the postage than it costs them for the Royal Mail shipping let alone the time and and the padded envelope. Really they do the hobby a huge favour with their pricing policies. I'm sure somebody knows abut the VAT law for certain. |
Judge Doug | 25 Oct 2016 7:05 a.m. PST |
Good lord, are packaging materials in the UK made of gold? No, I am pretty aware of the costs, as I mentioned, I buy and sell a lot of used (rare and oop) models to and from buyers and sellers in the UK; the individual sellers inform me of all related costs for packaging and shipping so I pay them. But don't forget that in my specific case and complaint, I am buying from the manufacturer direct – not from a distributor or a reseller – so Artizan or whomever is selling the item at full MSRP to me when they are just fine with selling it to a distributor for ~50%. Any packaging materials are simply the cost of doing business and are factored into the cost of the product. Unless there's other surcharges for labor, sandwich, tea, oxygen? We have a product that costs X number of pounds, plus 20% VAT. A buyer in the UK purchasing something from a seller in Virginia, USA does not pay 5.3% tax; nor would they pay the 9% sales tax if they ordered from Tennessee, USA; so why am I paying the VAT from ordering from the UK? Again in the Artizan example there is no disclaimer anywhere that says like "we do not remove VAT for US customers because it is against our policy to sell product and make money" or something similar. |
Timmo uk | 25 Oct 2016 7:14 a.m. PST |
Yes as mentioned time to pack an order so you are paying labour. The cost may not be factored into the cost of the product – we have no way of knowing what their pricing structure/model is unless they tell us here. Postage might be unduly biased to not favour large orders but I guess they've done their sums to work out how best to do it. And yes everything is expensive in the UK and will get more so for the home market. Because the cost of living here is high labour costs are high so yes you probably get charged for that time on top of the cost of the casting. For example, packing £100.00 GBP of figures might take 30 minutes so they charge you say $15 USD for that. Why you get charged VAT is down to the individual business so I can't answer for them for certain but I can see why they want to drive sales through their supply network rather than sell directly. I guess the only thing you can do is what you've been doing and choose to spend your money with the suppliers whose ethos you like and avoid those whose customer service falls below your expectations. Nothing wrong in that – I do exactly the same. |
HUBCommish | 25 Oct 2016 7:30 a.m. PST |
Timmo, are you a politician? I ask because after reading both of your posts I feel like a lot of words happened but no information or opinion was imparted. :D |
Aidan Campbell | 25 Oct 2016 7:49 a.m. PST |
As somebody that runs a business dealing in models and miniatures I was frightened when I actually sat down and worked out where my time goes, what I should be charging and where what I do charge actually goes. Time is by far and away the most expensive part of any process; Actually sorting castings and putting them in retail packaging and then storing these in an accessible format so they can be easily found when orders come in costs more in labour than the combined materials/labour of manufacturing the products. Dealing with orders and parcelling things up for postal dispatch is also another major cost in terms of time, especially when you factor in frequent trips to the post office. I suspect few customers ever appreciate what it costs in terms of time actually being polite when fully responding to enquiries and questions where the likelihood is that at best it will generate a sale worth about £2.00 GBP. and at worst a wasted hour or two. In effect I worked out I actually charge my customers largely for time spent talking to the few who want to spend hours endlessly discussing non standard requests for which I'd have to charge about eights times more than the customer would be willing to spend, and there after much of the cost are those of actually selling a product, not the cost of the product itself. One customer wishing to avoid VAT on a foreign order would probably cost more in admin time dealing with the paperwork than simply sending them the goods for free. Retailers who both understand the value of time and who will repeatedly spend money on large orders get far more favourable terms simply because they make it profitable to accommodate them. Best retailer I deal with is one chap who every month or two rings up taking about fifteen seconds to simply ask for another random mixed lot of unpackaged raw castings… no small talk and it's dead easy to cast, dead easy to ship, and dead easy to offer big saving on the individual retail price of individually packaged products, plus he settles every invoice promptly! |
Swampster | 25 Oct 2016 7:50 a.m. PST |
TMP link explains much of why some businesses can remove VAT and some can't. |
Zargon | 25 Oct 2016 8:02 a.m. PST |
Ha HUB spot on. Crooking the system and the customer not on folks, thought Britain were open for business, stop moaning about Brexit, roll up yer sleeves and get on with making a honest shilling. BTW I've never charged a customer packaging and build in the postage for local post. I've noted the price of certain manufactures are now eye watering for a pack GBP6ish for 4 figures plus 25 percent overseas postage, now would I be keen to get an army of 100 to 150 figures strong at those prices? Think not. If certain peoples lifestyle is as said 'expensive' why should others subsidise it. I've noted that I'm getting mainly Warlord, Perry and BTD with a smattering of GB, Empress and smaller companies (about 15 percent) from my customers to paint up, that tells you what's being bought here across the seas too. BTW Artizan is all under North Star and their model is standard + 25 on post strange considering how large a company they are. Fight! Fight for yoy right, to get a cheap small Arnie! |
Timmo uk | 25 Oct 2016 8:04 a.m. PST |
@HUB Timmo, are you a politician? I ask because after reading both of your posts I feel like a lot of words happened but no information or opinion was imparted. :D And your post has added what to this thread? : ) |
BrigadeGames | 25 Oct 2016 8:04 a.m. PST |
"Now, I refuse to order from Brigade because they've been a disorganized chaotic rude mess at the last two Historicons" Huh? Not really sure what that means. All the blister packs are organized by company, range and code into bins. Not sure how much more organized that could be. As far as rude, no one talked to me that I know of. If it was one of my staff I would like to know. However, I truly doubt that as I hear praise for them helping people every convention. If you had trouble checking out because we were swamped at the time you stopped by, sorry, but I can not do much about that. We had three people checking out when busy. Contact me via my webstore contact page if you want to get in touch. Best regards, Lon |
Crann Tara Minis | 25 Oct 2016 8:05 a.m. PST |
As a small figure company I am charged vat on all materials and production costs and I can't claim this cost back on any orders sold overseas so unfortunately the cost is passed on, if I were to deduct 20% off the figure price I couldn't afford to sell them overseas. I try and pay some back by pegging postage costs on overseas orders over £100.00 GBP to £5.00 GBP a bargain. The larger companies are all vat registered which effectively means they only pay at point of sale that's an oversimplification but hopefully clarifies a little |
Judge Doug | 25 Oct 2016 8:10 a.m. PST |
I'm honestly not too concerned about the shipping percentage – though it is one of the worst business practices of all time (and why it's so much easier to deal with flat rate or free shipping), nor am I concerned about the inability of businesses to price their products appropriately to account for labor and materials to produce said products. My post is about VAT. It's almost like we aren't living in an age where the automation of these things isn't a default way to do business. (I just googled and came up with a bevy of hits of shopping cart software that is VAT enabled) Perhaps my mistake was assuming that there was an answer but my complaint might just be with Artizan, as I do not believe the link Swampster provided would qualify as North Star hopefully makes more than £82.00 GBPk per year. |
Judge Doug | 25 Oct 2016 8:18 a.m. PST |
Hi Brigade, it is nothing with you personally, but each time I spent way too long attempting to locate an employee who would then seem exasperated and then spend way too long attempting to find a price for models or books that are all not priced. Browsing is impossible, and being on a time crunch, I simply left and spent my money at other booths where prices were actually advertised. This was brought up on TMP actually last year by one of my pals that also complained that he did not purchase several things because of the lack of pricing and length of time it took to locate a price. We had both hoped it would have been addressed in 2016 but was not. TMP link |
thorr666 | 25 Oct 2016 8:20 a.m. PST |
Vat sucks but 25% shipping is garbage and has stopped me purchasing a lot |
Judge Doug | 25 Oct 2016 8:20 a.m. PST |
I would like to point out that some companies like Sarissa offer discounts in other ways – the VAT is not removed, but is instead used to subsidize shipping (which for MDF can be quite a bit). |
PrivateSnafu | 25 Oct 2016 8:24 a.m. PST |
Lon, You are doing a great job. The OP sounds frustrated and not sure where to aim it. Thanks for taking my call yesterday! Total Cost of Ownership people. Learn it. Love the good retailers! |
Judge Doug | 25 Oct 2016 8:39 a.m. PST |
@PrivateSnafu, I only mentioned not ordering from Brigade so that another person wouldn't say "well just order from Brigade". I am trying to find the best prices, but I am not afraid to spend money (witness the sample list in my OP). My post is about companies like Artizan/North Star who do not remove VAT. |
45thdiv | 25 Oct 2016 8:52 a.m. PST |
Say, if you spend 200 pounds with the Perry's, the shipping is free. Matthew |
Manchu | 25 Oct 2016 8:55 a.m. PST |
If you had trouble checking out because we were swamped at the time you stopped by, sorry, but I can not do much about that. We had three people checking out when busy. This was not my experience. Historicon 2015 – I asked someone to price some rulebooks. He had no idea what anything cost, I guess he was some kind of volunteer? Anyhow, I helped him look around through the disorganized piles of pricing sheets laying all around the booth. None of them mentioned any books. He tried repeatedly to ask someone else for help but couldn't get an answer for whatever reason. The whole process took about ten minutes, only concerning one title out of many I wanted to ask about, and the conclusion was the guy just shrugged. Result: no purchase. The message seemed to be that Brigade did not want to do business with me. Importantly (to me anyhow) Lon owned up to this problem right here on TMP and apologized for Brigade's lack of preparation. Historicon 2016 – Waited for 15 minutes to talk to anyone at the booth. There were three people there but only one person was working (Lon of course). The other two were sitting near the center of the enclosed portion of the booth chatting and had been doing so every time I went by all day long. Finally talked to Lon, who is a great guy as far as I can tell, and he helped me get exactly what I was looking for. Unfortunately, it took another fifteen to twenty minutes to actually buy the stuff because, again, Lon was the only guy working. Lon, I hope you get some better help in the future! You sell some wonderful lines and the demand may have outgrown your current capacity. On the subject of 25% shipping charges, illegally collected VAT, and North Star – the result of North Star's practices is to create a tariff funnel of US customers to Brigade Games. Is that the intention or merely the result? |
DrNo172000 | 25 Oct 2016 9:10 a.m. PST |
Did someone suggest that percentage shipping wa to cover not only the cost of shipping but also labor and materials? If so what bizzare universe does that work in? Labor and materials is part CoGs. In this day and age there should be a free shipping threshold anyway. As far as VAT goes I won't pay it. I'll shop elsewhere. Not paying another country's taxes. |
Manchu | 25 Oct 2016 9:11 a.m. PST |
Not paying another country's taxes. Yes, we Americans tend to feel pretty strongly about this LOL! |
DrNo172000 | 25 Oct 2016 9:13 a.m. PST |
Heck we aren't even willing to pay another State's taxes! |
Dynaman8789 | 25 Oct 2016 9:22 a.m. PST |
All I care about is final cost including shipping, if it is acceptable I buy, if not, I don't. Charging VAT, don't care. Percentage shipping, Don't care. Bottom line, care. |
HUBCommish | 25 Oct 2016 9:29 a.m. PST |
Well sure Dynaman. But what if you take a look at that bottom line and realize it could be much less? If only the overseas company charged you close to the actual cost to ship, and didn't charge you a levy to support their dystopian bureaucracy, that is. |
Toronto48 | 25 Oct 2016 9:59 a.m. PST |
I would like to add a sidebar to this discussion and that is Canada is not part of the United States Several times I have had UK and European miniatures refer to their American representative This means that I end up paying more as the US company would have had to pay shipping and import costs on his shipments from the UK. Then when it is shipped from the US i pay shipping and import costs a second time If I order directly from the UK where I only pay these costs once |
Winston Smith | 25 Oct 2016 10:01 a.m. PST |
The bottom line for me is the aggregate price per figure with all charges and fees included. I really don't care if you are hiding Aunt Martha's cable tv fees in it, as long as the total price of the figure is affordable. |
Moonraker Miniatures | 25 Oct 2016 10:38 a.m. PST |
Two points I'd like the OP and others to absorb (some of this has been mentioned already but doesn't appear to have been absorbed). 1. Some UK companies (I'm one of them) are not registered for VAT because our turnover is no big enough. Therefore we don't have an "ex-VAT price" – we have the same price for everyone. If I was registered for VAT, my prices would be 20% higher. 2. Those registered for VAT who don't deduct it for foreign sales are not "illegally collecting VAT" so long as they include those sales in their declaration to the tax authority and pay the tax thus collected to the government. Doug |
Manchu | 25 Oct 2016 10:47 a.m. PST |
To your second point, what is the legal basis for charging a tax to someone not liable for that tax? |
IUsedToBeSomeone | 25 Oct 2016 10:52 a.m. PST |
It is a voluntary action to deduct the VAT and requires the company to keep detailed records of orders posted with receipts from the royal mail showing that the order DID go overseas. For some companies that is too much overhead for the small amount of orders they receive from overseas. Like Doug, I am not VAT registered so it hasn't affected me… |
willlucv | 25 Oct 2016 10:58 a.m. PST |
It does look like a massive faff removing VAT and filling in all the paperwork. Perhaps it would be easier to remove the value from postage costs? Basically pay what you are willing to pay. If you don't wish to buy something because of taxation don't buy it. |
The Man With Two Bryans | 25 Oct 2016 10:58 a.m. PST |
Artizan's web shop is actually part of the North Star site. It looks like a separate site, but actually links to the North Star shopping cart. North Star has its VAT number on its contact page, but its shopping cart and prices don't show any VAT breakdown. |
Manchu | 25 Oct 2016 11:01 a.m. PST |
Perhaps it would be easier to remove the value from postage costs? I would be happy with that solution. |
Mako11 | 25 Oct 2016 11:09 a.m. PST |
Because they can. Some even charge 40% shipping as well on even small, lightweight orders, or refuse to list their international shipping charges, even in general terms, both of which are very off-putting. Needless to say, they rarely if ever get my business. |
MajorB | 25 Oct 2016 11:09 a.m. PST |
Not every UK wargames company is registered for VAT. If you aren't registered for VAT you don't pay it or receive it, so you cannat reduce your overseas prices. |
Moonraker Miniatures | 25 Oct 2016 11:11 a.m. PST |
To your second point, what is the legal basis for charging a tax to someone not liable for that tax? We may not like it, you and I, and we may even find it morally repugnant but it's not illegal. Doug |
Mako11 | 25 Oct 2016 11:21 a.m. PST |
"I would like to add a sidebar to this discussion and that is Canada is not part of the United States". The word "yet" should be tacked onto the end of that quote, I suspect, given some ideas being bandied about this year, not to mention NAFTA……. ;-) |
Mako11 | 25 Oct 2016 11:23 a.m. PST |
I don't see why it would be an issue to have two sets of prices if not VAT registered, e.g. one for UK customers and one for international ones. |
Manchu | 25 Oct 2016 11:31 a.m. PST |
Doug (Moonraker Miniatures): I think your point is, it's not tax fraud. Agreed. But you have no legal right to collect the tax from foreigners in the first place, whether or not it is cheaper for your business to go ahead and do it. I understand that, practically speaking, foreigners are either paying what you charge or not; i.e., it's just a matter of cost sensitivity in terms of numbers. Several posters here obviously don't care why the price is X. (The ironic thing is, excluding VAT could theoretically drive the price higher than X for smaller VAT-registered retailers.) But some customers do. Only the particular business in question can answer whether it values those customers enough to accommodate them somewhere else, such as shipping. |
Moonraker Miniatures | 25 Oct 2016 11:35 a.m. PST |
Manchu – just a small point. If you are directing this specifically at me "you have no legal right to collect the tax from foreigners in the first place" can I reiterate in the strongest possible terms, I am not collecting VAT – I'm not registered for it. Doug |
Dynaman8789 | 25 Oct 2016 11:38 a.m. PST |
> Well sure Dynaman. But what if you take a look at that bottom line and realize it could be much less? I don't care. If I find the end price reasonable I buy it, if not I don't – end of story. I drive car salesmen nuts since they always try to play the "I'll give you a discount here" routine and I always counter with "Show me the final price". |
Dynaman8789 | 25 Oct 2016 11:40 a.m. PST |
> We may not like it, you and I, and we may even find it morally repugnant but it's not illegal. I don't know how the laws work in the UK but here in the US it is illegal – at least if you don't end up giving that money to the government it is. |
BrigadeGames | 25 Oct 2016 11:41 a.m. PST |
Judge Doug – Pricing was available on 95% of the items we had. We had flyers with pricing, signs with pricing, etc. Some items, we did not have priced as we were moving a lot during the convention and actually had to keep restocking (a good reason.) Due to how busy we were we did not get on top of that as we put restock out. My bad. But to say it wasn't better than in the past is totally incorrect. We made a concerted effort during setup to ensure we had price stickers or signs out. And for what it is worth, unless shrink-wrapped, books are typically priced inside the book in the back inside cover. If some of my guys were not paying attention and helping then that is my fault. They are usually quite attentive. Feel free to shout out to me or the guys to ask for help. They re gamers too so sometimes discussions can get involved and engrossing ;-) As far as pricing, as always, we have been fairly aggressive pricing the imported items. And we ran a bunch of specials that gave a free pack on a volume purchase and sponsored a dozen games and gave a bunch of prizes. Everyone has the right to purchase from who they want. I provide a service and extend capital to do that for one purpose. I, as well as any other proper businessperson who wants to continue being a businessperson, have to make a return on my investment. Taking several thousand blisters to the show is a capital investment. Some items we import are shorter discount than others. The pricing on those are not going to be as good as better discount items and making 10% on an imported item is not something that can be done for success. I have written previously about Historicon and the costs. For me to go, have my staff assist, costs me close to $5,000. USD That is just expense, not to stock products. Just imagine how much stocked bring to the show. I had promised that this was my last HC down South unless sales were better. We finally, after all the years at Historicon in Virginia, finally had a show in which we did decent numbers. b/r and see everyone at Fall In. Lon |
PaddySinclair | 25 Oct 2016 11:46 a.m. PST |
If a UK company is not VAT registered it cannot discount the VAT simple as that; any discount for whichever customers they want to offer is their concern however and should be presented clearly in their terms and conditions. A VAT registered company however cannot charge VAT to customers outside of the EU, but that does not mean that they will automatically discount by said amount, and they have no obligation to (again, their pricing structure should be outlined in their T&Cs). If you're outside the EU and are issued a VAT invoice with a non zero VAT component then the UK seller has screwed up at best, and at worst could be perpetrating a VAT fraud. |
MajorB | 25 Oct 2016 11:51 a.m. PST |
I don't see why it would be an issue to have two sets of prices if not VAT registered, e.g. one for UK customers and one for international ones. Why should residents in one country pay more than the residents in another? The only difference would be in the cost of shipping. |
PaddySinclair | 25 Oct 2016 11:54 a.m. PST |
DrNo172000 wrote As far as VAT goes I won't pay it. I'll shop elsewhere. Not paying another country's taxes. That's actually not happening in those instances (or shouldn't be unless the retailer is doing something illegal). As an Non-EU purchaser, you cannot be charged VAT and no VAT is generated based on your purchase. But as I noted above, that does not mean you will receive a discount equivalent to that charged to a EU customer at the same price. That money doesn't go into the HMRC's (Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs) pockets, but the retailers. |
Moonraker Miniatures | 25 Oct 2016 11:56 a.m. PST |
….it is illegal – at least if you don't end up giving that money to the government it is. That's the whole point which I detailed in point 2, of my first post on the subject above. A VAT registered company however cannot charge VAT to customers outside of the EU, Yes they can, so long as they pay the tax they have charged to the tax authority. Doug |
MajorB | 25 Oct 2016 12:02 p.m. PST |
What the UK government says about it: "VAT on exports to non- EU countries. VAT is a tax on goods used in the EU , so if goods are exported outside the EU , VAT isn't charged. You can zero-rate the sale, provided you get and keep evidence of the export, and comply with all other laws." link |
Manchu | 25 Oct 2016 12:08 p.m. PST |
PaddySinclair raises an interesting point: If you cannot be charged VAT, then have you been? Or, put it another way, if the customer was not liable for VAT then did the seller actually charge it? Both the EU customer pays X and the US customer pays X. Is this just a case of charging the US customer more? Or is this a case of "missing trader fraud"? |
GildasFacit | 25 Oct 2016 12:12 p.m. PST |
If you don't want to pay VAT then you can't shop in any EU country, full stop. At every stage in the process from raw materials, through distributors and processors, even on postage, VAT is charged. What you see is the end product price but a good chunk of that goes in taxation. What you need to realise is that our taxation pays expenses that US companies have to pay out of their profits – generally US companies have a higher mark up than EU countries and a shorter distributor chain. The fact that you do it differently is neither good nor bad, just different. |
Manchu | 25 Oct 2016 12:20 p.m. PST |
GildasFacit, I think for the purposes of this thread, people are only talking about tax on the final transaction. |