Tango01 | 24 Oct 2016 2:43 p.m. PST |
…In Central Somalia. "Islamist militant group al Shabaab on Sunday seized control of yet another town in central Somalia after it was abandoned by African Union peacekeepers, a militant spokesman and a local official said, the third to fall to insurgents this month. On Sunday, an Ethiopian contingent abandoned the town of Halgan in the Hiran region, allowing the group's fighters to enter soon after, said Abdiasis Abu Musab, al Shabaab's spokesman on military operations. A military offensive launched in 2014 by AU forces and the Somali army pushed out of major strategic centers, but the insurgents, who once held sway over much of the Horn of Africa country, still control some settlements and rural areas…" More here link Amicalement Armand |
Legion 4 | 25 Oct 2016 3:25 p.m. PST |
Does not sound like the "good guys" really had their hearts' in it. Unlike AS … but of course they know if they are killed they go to Paradise … so there is that … |
Mako11 | 26 Oct 2016 3:37 a.m. PST |
Sounds like they're a neighbor of Bongolesia, and it's just another typical day in the region. Different day, perhaps different winners/losers, same issues. Just another typical day in paradise. |
Deadles | 26 Oct 2016 6:12 p.m. PST |
The AU seem to only operate well when "corseted" with Western support ala helicopter gunships, special forces, drones and intelligence. And probably command and control behind the scenes. Otherwise they just fall in a heap. I guess it doesn't help a lot of them are Nigerian troops who proved themselves largely useless against Boko Haram. |
Bangorstu | 27 Oct 2016 4:26 a.m. PST |
To be fair to the Nigerians, they've had years of the government running the military down due to the habit of having coups. With a boost in funding and equipment, they've been kicking Boko Haram's backside for a few months now. As for the African Union troops – it depend son which army is actually doing the fighting. Worth remembering that AU troops, with no Western support, kicked Al-Shabab out of Magadishu. I think that was Rwandans and Ugandans. And, unlike Western armies, they seem reasonably keen to stay the course and finish the job. |
Legion 4 | 27 Oct 2016 9:29 a.m. PST |
And, unlike Western armies, they seem reasonably keen to stay the course and finish the job.
Like the Iraqis in Iraq … It's their backyard … They should be at the very least keen to end terrorists like AS and BH. Just like in Iraq, the vast majority being killed in Africa is other Africans by Africans. Of course the moslem vs. non-moslem paradigm comes into play as well. Not to mention tribal distain, etc. in Africa, just like in Iraq, A'stan and Pakistan for that matter. As long as religious and tribal affiliations trumps all else there will be little chance of long term peace in those regions. And lets not forget the weak, corrupt, factionalized governments and leadership which is the "hallmark" of many in those regions. Bottom line IMO, the West should only give minimal support in these regions like we see is happening in Iraq. The West can't change the local hatreds for other locals that go back for decades upon decades. And many of those areas have required outside humanitarian support from the West as well, for as long as I have been alive. With very little real change … I can see no reason why the West needs to risk anymore of it's shrinking militaries assets/soldiers as is entirely necessary. |
Bangorstu | 27 Oct 2016 9:51 a.m. PST |
Legion – for the Rwandans and Ugandans, it's not really their backyard… Sonalia is a long way from both. The problem is finding someone to run the country once the AU leave – though there are elections in the offing I think. What we should do for Somalia is recognise the bit that broke away, and is being run reasonably efficiently as Somaliland. |
Legion 4 | 27 Oct 2016 10:37 a.m. PST |
for the Rwandans and Ugandans, it's not really their backyard…Sonalia is a long way from both. It's a lot closer than LA or London … The problem is finding someone to run the country once the AU leave – though there are elections in the offing I think. That has been the problem for decades if not longer. As I said, lets not forget the weak, corrupt, factionalized governments and leadership which is the "hallmark" of many in those regions. What we should do for Somalia is recognise the bit that broke away, and is being run reasonably efficiently as Somaliland.
"WE" don't have to do anything … that sort of thing is for the UN. And even then the West will have to send boatload after boatload of food, medical supplies, etc., … which is generally fine if that is what has to be done. And some want to do it. But it has been going on for a very, very long time. And will probably continue … as many in the region don't do well under a centralized government it appears. For a number of reasons it seems. |
PMC317 | 27 Oct 2016 6:14 p.m. PST |
Wasn't the main reason that the Nigerians have improved their success rate against Boko Haram foreign mercenaries (South Africans, Serbs, etc)? |
Legion 4 | 28 Oct 2016 9:03 a.m. PST |
Many/most Africa forces rival some forces of the Mid East. Limited effectiveness at best. No matter how much training and money the West spends on the them. |
Bangorstu | 29 Oct 2016 2:25 p.m. PST |
Any evidence for that comment? |
Legion 4 | 29 Oct 2016 4:07 p.m. PST |
Ah yeah … I'm basing it on general observations I have made. For sometime now. And others have as well. My evidence – Historical Record comes to mind. You may disagree … so … Please enlighten me if you have proof ? And note … I said many/most … NOT ALL … |
Mako11 | 30 Oct 2016 2:11 a.m. PST |
50+ years or so, I suspect, based upon my personal observations on the region. A lot longer than that, I suspect, but I wasn't around then for that. As far back as I can remember, much of Africa has been a total mess. A lot like the Middle East in that respect. |
Bangorstu | 30 Oct 2016 3:18 a.m. PST |
Legion… I don't doubt there are some woeful militaries in Africa. That said the army of Chad has an excellent record and it and Niger recently gave Boko Haram a splendid kicking. Ghana has a high reputation as does Kenya. Al Shabaab was thrown out of Mogadishu by the Ugandans and Burundians. And the South Africans still seem to be decent. Good enough a record for you? It's not the 1970s anymore… |
Legion 4 | 30 Oct 2016 8:32 a.m. PST |
The South Africans always have very been capable. That said the army of Chad has an excellent record and it and Niger recently gave Boko Haram a splendid kicking.Ghana has a high reputation as does Kenya. Al Shabaab was thrown out of Mogadishu by the Ugandans and Burundians.
And yet still very little of the region is in positive control. What have those forces you mentioned, recently have done in the battle against AS and BH, etc., ? I was not impressed with the Kenyans performance as of late. And the forces you mentioned are only a small percentage of the Region's forces. Good enough a record for you? It's not the 1970s anymore…
No it is not, based on all the problems that are still going on. And I'm well aware it is no longer the '70s. I do remember some officers from Africa and the Mid East training with us. In both the Inf Ofc Basic,'79 and later in ther Inf Ofc Adv '83, Courses. They were supposed to be the "best" to be sent to those US training courses. I think some were sent because of who they knew or who they were. Not based on the "the Best" criteria. That is the way the US military does it. And generally they were capable and "good" guys to work with. And to drink and joke around with, of course ! The ones that really impressed me was the Egyptian Commando and the IDF Infantry officer in '83. Now that I think of it some of those African nations no longer exist. So those are my observations from back then. Along with what I read online and in the media today. They don't have to agree with yours … |
Bangorstu | 30 Oct 2016 3:11 p.m. PST |
Boko Haram has not had a good year. Niger and Chad inflicted heavy defeats on them in their own nations and then I think have helped the Nigerians. Things are looking up in Nigeria. The Rwandans and Ugandans did very well in liberating Mogadishu. I don't known if they're still in Somalia. Both are poor countries and can't sustain an effort. But let's be frank. Success in Somalia is difficult to come by. Given the forces available, that was good soldiering by forces without many advantages compared to Western Armies. You may be right about Kenya – I suspect the intervention in Somalia didn't have much public support though. |
Bangorstu | 30 Oct 2016 3:24 p.m. PST |
There's a lot of info on the African Union forces on Wikipedia, including a map of who is deployed where. Main forces are Kenyan, Ethiopian, Djiboutian and Ugandan. It would seem AS are only fighting the Ethiopians which again suggests theyre too weak to mix it with more professional forces…though I may be being hard on the Ethiopians there. Sierra Leone did supply a contingent, which is interesting. But they had to go home as the Ebola outbreak meant they couldn't rotate troops. |
foxweasel | 30 Oct 2016 3:26 p.m. PST |
I'm off on a 5 week training job in Nigeria next week, I'll let you know how they were when I get back. |
Legion 4 | 30 Oct 2016 3:46 p.m. PST |
stu … as I said, not all armies in Africa are incompetent. You'd really need more intel than that can be picked up online. In many cases the only way for me to judge is past performances as of late. And yes, Somalia like A'stan has a lot of problems. And may be a lost cause too.
Boko Haram has not had a good year. And those victories you cite, were few and far between. And AS and BH, etc., still seem to have the upper hand. If there was "good soldiering" as you mentioned, and I'm sure some soldiers fought well. But then there needs to more of it and more often, IMO … Fox, yes let us now how that goes. Should be interesting … Stay safe ! |
Bangorstu | 01 Nov 2016 12:00 a.m. PST |
Except the victories against Bh have been sustained and not few and far between. John Hopkins University stated that BH killed around 250 in the second quarter of 2016 – the lowest total in five years. They've also split into two, mutually hostile factions. Interesting to note that a lot of the fighting done before the 2015 elections was done by South African and East European mercenaries though. |
Legion 4 | 01 Nov 2016 7:55 a.m. PST |
Except the victories against Bh have been sustained and not few and far between. We'll see in the long run … The battle against BH is not over … or AS for that matter. Interesting to note that a lot of the fighting done before the 2015 elections was done by South African and East European mercenaries though. The use of Mercs in Africa has been going on since after WWII. They are hired because generally the local forces lacked in competence and effectiveness, etc., … You are not going to get me to agree that many/most of the African militaries are that effective. And it has been that way for a long time. The Cuban and Russain advisors sent to train some of those forces in the '70s and'80s. Came to the conclusion that many of the locals just don't make very good soldiers. Now I realize, that was a long time ago. But as I have seen over time, many still fit that rating to some level or another. I'll take Russian Spetsnaz evaluations over yours … Just saying … |
Bangorstu | 01 Nov 2016 10:52 a.m. PST |
BH seems finished, Al-Shabaab is a very different story. It's a shame Somalia doesn't make the news very often, because it does seem there's been a lot of good soldiering done there, and brave men deserve recognition. Let's face it, the AU doesn't have a lot of kit, so to liberate Mogadishu is an achievement. I agree the Nigerian military was in a bad place in 2015 – but the current leader has thrown a lot of money at them and they've tooled up. They've also been given training by the US and Britain. I think they're beginning to stand on their own two feet again – but as you say, time will tell. The trick is keeping them sharp once BH has been dealt with. There's nothing about an African that makes them inherently bad soldiers. It's just a matter of training. If you're going to use Russians, you'll get Russian results. The Nigerians and Ghanians fought well in Burma in WW2. The Kings African Rifles (East Africans) ditto. So I'll agree, in the 1970s, the armies were woeful. But, as you say, that was a long time ago. I'll judge them by what they achieve in 20916, not 1975. |
Legion 4 | 01 Nov 2016 2:42 p.m. PST |
BH just committed a terrorist attack today or so. I'm awaiting more information from the media. lot of good soldiering done there, and brave men deserve recognition. As I said, I'm sure some soldiers fought well. There's nothing about an African that makes them inherently bad soldiers. It's just a matter of training. I'm going by what the Russians and Cubans had reported in the past. And some current events that don't always agree with your conclusions. They've also been given training by the US and Britain. Many have in the past and currently … As I said, I trained with some African Officers while I was on active duty. The Nigerians and Ghanians fought well in Burma in WW2. The Kings African Rifles (East Africans) ditto. Very well aware of African units effective performances in WWII. Most/many under UK or French command, etc. However I'm talking about after WWII. I'll judge them by what they achieve in 20916, not 1975.
As I said and you quoted me … time will tell … |