"Help With Vietnam Cav Table of Organization " Topic
15 Posts
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Action Log
02 Jun 2017 8:18 p.m. PST by Editor in Chief Bill
- Removed from Cold War (1946-1989) board
- Changed title from "Nerd Herd Gaming in North Carolina?" to "Help With Vietnam Cav Table of Organization "
- Changed starttime from
23 Oct 2016 8:16 a.m. PST to 23 Oct 2016 8:38 a.m. PST
- Crossposted to Vietnam War board
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Just Jack | 23 Oct 2016 8:38 a.m. PST |
All, In my younger days I'd read a book on US cav in the Vietnam War. I don't recall the title, but it had a table of organization in it that had recon helos, slicks, gunships, and armored cav (tracks and Sheridans, I believe). I've been searching the Internet all morning and can't find it. So I'm looking for a Cav T/O that mixes helos and armor/mech. What is the lowest echelon (battalion/squadron, regiment, brigade, or division) where this occurs? I would swear that I'd seen a squadron broken into Troops of HQ, Whites, Reds, Blues, and Mech, but I'm not sure. This seems too low, probably makes more sense at regimental level, with maybe two Air Cav Squdrons and an Armored Cav Battalion? But then that doesn't make sense to me as regiments should be homogeneous, and brigades can mix… Any help, guidance, or recommendations would be greatly appreciated. V/R, Jack |
brass1 | 23 Oct 2016 9:49 a.m. PST |
The 11th Armored Cavalry Regiment had three armored cavalry squadrons and an air cavalry troop. Is this what you're looking for? LT |
Mako11 | 23 Oct 2016 11:30 a.m. PST |
I've seen a number of different orgs for them, since it was a transitional time period. I've seen 3 x M551s per unit, and then later, 6x (though that's for Europe, so not sure if it applies to Vietnam as well). Varying numbers of M113s too. |
Just Jack | 23 Oct 2016 1:14 p.m. PST |
LT – that could be it, but it seems kinda backward from what I remember. Is this standard terminology where squadron = battalion and troop = company? Thanks for the help. Mako – thanks man. I'm really trying to find a battalion or regimen-sized unit with organic loaches, slicks, gunships, tracks, and tanks. V/R, Jack |
Major Mike | 23 Oct 2016 3:11 p.m. PST |
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SouthernPhantom | 23 Oct 2016 3:48 p.m. PST |
The lowest level with that mix is the Cav Squadron. Squadrons (bttn-equivalent) seemed to generally have three air cavalry troops (company-equivalent), one armored cav troop, and an HQ troop (HHT). There will always be exceptions and oddities, but that is a good guideline. From there, air cav troops were subdivided into scout (white), guns (red), and lift (blue) platoons, each with about ten ships depending on losses and serviceability. I have never, ever heard of air and armor being mixed on the troop level in that era. There were some interesting cav troop organizations seen in the NG in the 80s, but none in Vietnam. |
CAG 19 | 23 Oct 2016 4:18 p.m. PST |
Try his one for the ground element. Page 88 onwards PDF link |
Mako11 | 23 Oct 2016 5:43 p.m. PST |
Hmmm, interesting info about the troop ratios SP, but that makes sense for Vietnam. For Cold War Europe, if I'm not mistaken, the ratios are the exact opposite, e.g. three armored, and one air cav troop, so clearly the orgs were pretty flexible. I believe the plan was for the helos to provide close support, and/or recon for the armored ground units during wartime. |
brass1 | 23 Oct 2016 9:47 p.m. PST |
I've seen 3 x M551s per unit, and then later, 6x (though that's for Europe, so not sure if it applies to Vietnam as well). I believe the 11th was one of the first units to have the Sheridan inflicted on it; the 3 vehicle organization may well date from the field test period. The funny thing is, I actually visited Blackhorse while I was in the Nam but I don't remember a thing about it, except that there was beer involved. LT |
capt jimmi | 24 Oct 2016 5:30 a.m. PST |
Hi Jack , have you got plans to go "tear-assing around the 'Nam "? Hahaha! …aren't you slumming it with an Army unit ? link link link The Armoured Cavalry Regiment (like 11th and 3rd ACR) usually had 3-4 ground troops and 1 air troop. The ground troops usually had 3 Cav Platoons and one Tank Platoon, or alternatively the tanks could be kept in a separate troop under Squadron control. The Cav Platoons usually operated 6 M113 ACAVs . The ACAV was a fighting vehicle not an APC. It was armed with a variety of weapons but standard was a 50 cal arm open turret and 2 or more M-60 machineguns behind shields, they rarely carried more than 2 scout dismounts per vehicle, thus the Cavalry Platoon could field only 1 full strength squad dismounted. The Air cavalry Troop (ie; Company) of an Air Cavalry Squadron consisted of a Troop HQ , a scout Platoon of four LOH/Loach Helos (White team), an Aero-Rifle Platoon consisting of a Lift section of four UH1D Helos and four squads typically numbering 28 men (Blue team) and a Weapons Platoon consisting of four attack helos eg. Cobras.(Red team) Aero rifle platoons (the 'Blues) were usually inserted for quick in and out ops. Often they were hopped about. An area would be divided into small sectors, a platoon inserted to reconnoiter it, then picked up and inserted in another and so on. A fire team (eg. pair of Cobras) was on call if not orbiting nearby, although they had little fuel to stay on station too long. "when the Blues go out, they carry more firepower than God" @MajorMike ; Great links ! |
brass1 | 24 Oct 2016 9:42 p.m. PST |
This clears up something I never bothered to ask about while I was there, i.e. why was a team made up of a couple of Loaches flying low to draw fire and a couple of Cobras flying high to swoop down and clobber whoever fired at the Loaches called a "pink team"? Of course, it was a mixture of White and Red. FWIW, the ARVN version of the ACAV tended to have all kinds of hardware added to the standard armament; automatic 40mm grenade launchers were extremely popular and a surprising number of them had 106mm recoilless rifles mounted. LT |
Just Jack | 25 Oct 2016 6:11 p.m. PST |
Thanks everyone, I greatly appreciate the guidance and links. And it is indeed the Air Cav Squadron I was looking for: HQ Troop 3 Air Cav Troops 1 Armored Cav Troop My only issue (for wargaming) is being a bit put off by the Armored Cav Troop using ACAVs, with only two dismounts per vehicle!!! What good are the tracks without grunts??? In any case, that is what I was looking for, I should be able to get some gaming in. I've got plenty of infantry, 2 OH-6s, 2 Hogs, 2 Chinooks, 6 Slicks, five Sheridans, twelve ACAVs, and five M-114s, in 6mm, just about ready to go. Plenty of NVA, need to finish up VC and civvies. Not sure how I'll handle villages, but I'll figure something out (on the cheap). So yeah, Jimmi, looks like I'll be slumming with the Army ;) But I've got a yearnin' for some Apocalypse Now-style Air Cav action. V/R, Jack |
colkrazykenny | 26 Oct 2016 9:34 a.m. PST |
Have you checked out flames of war Tour of duty? BF usually had nice force org lists. |
Lion in the Stars | 26 Oct 2016 11:43 a.m. PST |
11th Cav (Blackhorse) had 3 ground troops and one air cav troop. Ground troops were the strange mix of Sheridans, ACAVs, and M113s. IIRC, up to 4x M113s in the platoon HQ, 3x Sheridans, and 4x ACAVs, and 3 of those platoons in the troop. Maybe with an M48 platoon, too. |
Andy P | 31 Oct 2016 8:54 a.m. PST |
Was the book black horse riders? A great book with some ideas for scenarios especially jungle busting with armoured dozers. The book shows how they attached a standard leg Infantry company to the ACAV troop, they rode up top. |
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