Trajanus | 22 Oct 2016 4:50 a.m. PST |
I was round a friends the other day and was looking at his plastic 28mm British and Portuguese infantry and it occurred to me that now plastics have been around for quite a while and cross several periods (both he and I have AWC for example) whats the market like? My friend is an excellent painter and although I have a different style I'm pretty good too, if I have to say so myself. Certainly his stuff both metal and plastic are indistinguishable, until you pick them up! So bearing in mind the time, effort and result are the same, the only difference is initial cost and buyer preference. If you don't like plastics – that's the end of it. What then would you consider a reasonable price difference for a unit of say 30 miniatures (any period) to the exact same standard, for metal over plastic? Be good sports and spare me the "would never buy them" "don't care, hate plastic figures" reply's please. I already know not every one likes them. |
Marcel1809 | 22 Oct 2016 5:06 a.m. PST |
About one pound cheaper for Plastic per figure as mtal figures unpainted tend to cost well above one pound unpainted |
Timmo uk | 22 Oct 2016 5:42 a.m. PST |
As you rightly state the time/effort/result are the same for metal and plastic the only differentiator between then, again as you write, is the original purchase price. Therefore to my way of thinking the only difference by the time both are painted should remain that same difference in the cost of the raw materials. To me that's a logical conclusion but the fly in the ointment is that the market doesn't generally perceive plastic figures to be worth as much as metal figures. |
GildasFacit | 22 Oct 2016 6:08 a.m. PST |
Logic has nothing to do with what people will pay so setting a price based on how much work they took isn't likely to get anywhere commercially. A well painted figure may take 15-20mins to paint for a good, practised painter. A superb figure may take an hour. The superb figure is likely to sell at 10 or more times the good figure because it appeals to a wider market that includes collectors as well as gamers. Plastic is still seen as 'cheap' but, in my very limited experience, time taken assembling the figures and filling joints etc. ends up making them MORE expensive than metal – with my time figured in. |
Hafen von Schlockenberg | 22 Oct 2016 6:33 a.m. PST |
Is the cost of material the only difference? Are the costs of sculpting,mold-making,and manufacturing the same? It's been said here before that the cost of material isn't a major factor in figure production. |
4th Cuirassier | 22 Oct 2016 6:57 a.m. PST |
Whatever they cost to make they usually sell cheaper. Personally I just like the heft of metal figures. |
Deuce03 | 22 Oct 2016 7:30 a.m. PST |
It used to be the case that plastics required more capital investment. With metals the costs are all in the sculpting and the material; if you know what you're doing you can cast metal figures in your shed. Plastics require more specialist plant, which is why they tended to be limited to larger companies, and kits that would likely sell many copies. But once the equipment is set up the cost per figure on plastics is very low. It was also the case for a long time that plastics were much more limited in detail and pose. From what I understand the cost of the plastic tooling has dropped in the last few years which has opened up the market a bit more. They do though still retain some of their earlier stigma as being cheaper and nastier than metals, even though these days details is pretty much comparable and variety of pose is often wider on plastic figures. Like 4th Cuirassier, I like the heft of metal figures but I have nothing against plastics for their own sake, if it means I can get more troops onto the table at a lower cost and with no compromise in quality. I do however have a bit of a beef with plastics for a couple of reasons: firstly, while multipart plastics allow for more interesting poses and kitbsahing, they also take a lot longer to clean, assemble, and and generally prepare than do metal figures. That means less hobby time for painting. I find they don't take thin, brushed undercoat so well as metal figures, so I have to spray them – and while I would normally spray all my figures there are times when that isn't practical. And plastics are much harder to strip than metals, to the point where it's not worth bothering. That means their second-hand value is limited, and if I buy any second-hand then I'm stuck with the paint job their original owner used even if it doesn't match my collection. That last point is relevant for selling pre-painted figures. If your painting is very good it's not so much of a problem because much of the value is in the paint job. However many people will want to buy painted figures more cheaply than unpainted, because they're planning to strip them and repaint them in their own style. From that perspective metals, where almost no matter how bad the paint job is the figure can still be salvaged, hold their value much better than do plastics, which can be almost worthless second-hand depending on paint job. On the other hand, well-painted plastics should probably command a price slightly higher than metals to the same standard, in my opinion, simply because plastic preparation takes a lot longer. That doesn't seem to be the case, although a price could probably be set identically for both and that would seem reasonable. |
Captain Gideon | 22 Oct 2016 8:01 a.m. PST |
For myself where money is always a problem if I'm buying painted plastic or metal figures I try to find figures that's painted decent and within my budget then I'm happy. |
deadhead | 22 Oct 2016 8:06 a.m. PST |
As a mere observer, I think this is a brilliant discussion. Deuce03 taught me much especially. I have the old idea that plastics take a massive investment in moulds, but they can turn out quality for years. Not for ever though. I remember Airfix KGV on first release and the quality of the deck mouldings a decade later. Interested to know they are becoming cheaper. I do recall the rumour that GW was going totally to plastic as the cost of metal was soaring. Turned out to be a rumour only. Plastics for conversion and unique to you. Metal given the choice if the pose is what you really wanted. Painting must be the same for both (although I do agree undercoating more challenging and raised detail can vary) |
idontbelieveit | 22 Oct 2016 8:24 a.m. PST |
As a buyer, I'm looking at the finished product. There are some plastics that look better than corresponding metal (more detail) and if a painter can bring that out, that is more valuable to me. There are some plastics that are more fragile than corresponding metal and durability is important to me. So, it depends on the particulars. In some cases I would pay more in some cases I would not. |
Random Die Roll | 22 Oct 2016 8:33 a.m. PST |
For arguments sake lets start off with the idea that Mass market painted figures are of "fair" rating Most individual painted hobby figures are "good" rating And a few people out there have the ability to produce "excellent" or "show" quality miniatures That said…you could be looking at a price point of $10 USD-$20 per miniature--and I think that material cost would not really factor in If you want some real world examples head here.. link Many customers are not looking at the initial cost of the minis, just the final price and quality. -the sticker shock of a 30 mini box set may put off all but a select number of customers---you may need to have this type of business as a specialty order and not an off the shelf stockist |
wrgmr1 | 22 Oct 2016 8:46 a.m. PST |
I look at painted figures for sale often, here and on E-bay. Pro-painted as declared on E-bay is very much a variable attribute. Here on TMP the description tends to be more accurate. Depending on the paintwork, I would pay more for a well painted plastic figure than a metal one. Given similar paintwork on both, I would expect to pay the same, given the amount of work assembly takes for plastic. But then I'm a painter gamer, not a collector and value time gamers give to painting. |
Mardaddy | 22 Oct 2016 11:12 p.m. PST |
"Fair," does not enter into the equation. It is a commercial exchange. For me – it would make no difference metal or plastic, I'd offer the same price for either. Don't care if the metal cost more initially or if more labor was put into plastic, my offer is based on my perceived need and what I am willing to pay to have that need met. One of the reasons I hate back-and-forth haggling… I make the offer I am willing to pay, if you do not want to sell it at that cost, I am not butt-hurt over it or all, "judgy," obviously you value the unit more than I do, no big deal. And I am not offended in the least if/when the roles are reversed – I would expect any potential customer wanting my figures to do the exact same. |
Trajanus | 23 Oct 2016 2:06 a.m. PST |
Excellent comments, gentlemen. The points along the lines of "what the market will bare" chime also. I have to confess that my point of judgement when looking at painted units for sale be they in a "bring & buy" or on a trade stand is "are they as good as mine?" On that basis l have to say a lot of times and from both sale points, I find people with a lot of balls! In posting I was also interested in if, now were down the road a ways, people shared the view of a retailer of metal who confidentiality predicted to me some years ago, that second hand plastic units would be worth beans if you ever wanted to sell them on. |
nevinsrip | 23 Oct 2016 2:24 a.m. PST |
Most plastics lose in overall quality because of the multi- part feature. They just don't look right to me. Probably because they are made to fit different parts, that they never really look as good as a single piece metal figure. No matter how well they are put together, they still have that unnatural look to me. I don't think that plastic paints up as well as metal does because of this. Just my own opinion. I own plenty of both, but I prefer metal. |
Ottoathome | 23 Oct 2016 5:25 a.m. PST |
It's what someone is willing to pay for them. Set your prices to whatever you want. If no one buys them, it's too high. The price of anything is what people are willing to pay for it. |
Griefbringer | 24 Oct 2016 3:19 a.m. PST |
Most plastics lose in overall quality because of the multi- part feature. They just don't look right to me. Probably because they are made to fit different parts, that they never really look as good as a single piece metal figure. No matter how well they are put together, they still have that unnatural look to me. Depends a lot on the figure and person assembling. Some plastics are only a couple of parts (like the original Perry ACW infantry), while others offer much more flexibility in assembly – and those later ones can sometimes look really impressive or really unnatural depending on the person assembling them. Also, some of the more dynamic poses are difficult to do as one piece metals. |
Trajanus | 24 Oct 2016 5:02 a.m. PST |
I think the other advantage plastics have is that some of them give you the opportunity to paint parts pre assembly. Which allows a better detail in areas that are a nightmare to get to but still clearly visible on the finished figure. I'm doing that now, painting the muskets from my new Perry Union Infantry box before gluing the arm/hand mould they are part of onto the body. The arm and hand will be painted later with the rest of the figure My friend that I mentioned in my OP does this with Napoleonic Infantry that have separate packs, as he says it makes the rest of the back of the figure and collar detail much easier to get at. Having painted Perry Metal ACW figures that have packs with blanket rolls strapped on I can see what he's getting at. |
von Winterfeldt | 24 Oct 2016 5:07 a.m. PST |
look at the development of Perrys plastic miniatures, their recent boxes are of a very high quality and some details like muskets – or guns – are to be unachieved in metal. |
Trajanus | 24 Oct 2016 8:04 a.m. PST |
True, that's why you end up painting them before assembly! :o) |
Griefbringer | 24 Oct 2016 8:15 a.m. PST |
On another note, do any of the commercial painting services charge differently for painting metal and plastic figures (assuming that the figures have been cleaned and assembled by the customer)? |
Trajanus | 24 Oct 2016 1:49 p.m. PST |
Now that's a good question! Come to that, does anyone do an assemble and paint service for plastics? |
wrgmr1 | 29 Oct 2016 11:51 a.m. PST |
I recall one painting service I looked at, can't remember which one, that would charge less if you sent them assembled plastics. I would venture to guess that postage would offset that. |
Rabelais | 30 Oct 2016 9:41 a.m. PST |
Anecdotal, but a few years ago I was painting and selling plastic figures on Ebay. I got the plastic figures at trade price so they were even cheaper than metal. The metal figures I painted sold for so much more that I made more money off them even when you factored in the cost of the figure AND disregarded the extra time assembling plastics. |