"When did an enemy fleet last pass the Dover Straits?" Topic

Yes, we all know the answer

And we know that at least we could put up some MTBs, a few destroyers and those poor beggars in Swordfish.

So what do we do on 21st October 2016? We escort a carrier, a battle cruisers and attendant fleet from Putin with two little glorified corvettes…………What timing. Can you hear Nelson in his grave?

Do Toast the Immortal Memory tonight.

It is Trafalgar Day remember…………..

Enemy? I'm not aware Russia is at war with the UK.

Well when the Russians did this once before they made a great show of their fleet sailing around the world to fight the Japanese.

I do recall that did not end well for the Russians.

Russia is not currently an "enemy" of the UK.

Hopefully this time they didn't open fire on any fishing boats.

They're going through the channel. Last I heard, there were one or two minor nations like France on the other side… don't hear many people complaining about a lack of French escort vessels…

Historically (post-Nap), Russia and France have been allies a lot more than enemies, so no escort needed anyways?

At what point did they become the enemy?

Warships transit the English Channel every day…..what is interesting is that this group appears to be what is left….can still rase steam…..of the Northern banner fleet……..
Seem to remember there are more tied up that can move under their own power

How many will come back under their own power……….tug looks nice!

Putin trying to intimidate the west!!!

These things things called "airplanes" mean that you don't actually need to escort anything … or have ships.

Does anyone know for sure that there are no attack subs lurking nearby? In all seriousness, any idea if all of the RN and French subs are in port or known to be a long way off?

According to the Belgian news an imposing Russian fleet sailed past the Belgian coast escorted by a Belgian frigate. They are not referred to as an enemy.

Hopefully this time they didn't open fire on any fishing boats. They didnt have to, the EU has already destroyed our fishing fleet.

Ah the Fishing Fleet, it was an own goal by British negotiators way back when. No one asked for it. It was sacrificed on the altar of ineptitude.

As for the Russian ships-well that's how you get to Syria from where they live. International Waters – No big deal.

In 1964 the aircraft carrier HMS Victorious and several escort ships sailed through the Sunda Straits between Java and Sumatra at a time when the UK forces were involved in a confrontation with Indonesia.

World powers often do things like this to make a point to potential opponents.

The Russians were not doing anything unlawful. They were transiting an international seaway, and were given a 'courtesy' escort by the ships of several NATO navies.

Russia is not our enemy.

"When did an enemy fleet last pass the Dover Straits"
This was the title, he did not say the Russians were the enemy.
Also you do not have to be at war with someone to know they are you enemy.

Does anyone know for sure that there are no attack subs lurking nearby? In all seriousness, any idea if all of the RN and French subs are in port or known to be a long way off?

Probably 2/3ds of the subs are in port or shipyard, that's pretty typical of any fleet.

Of the third not in port, I'd guess that most of them are currently playing hide-and-seek in the Channel.

And the third of the fleet in port but not in shipyard are probably waiting for their turn to come out and play.

Can you hear Nelson in his grave?

Nope. All quiet. :-)

Why is Kuznetsov making so much smoke? That can't be a good sign. Can they actually run any jet ops like that?

- Ix

Well when the Russians did this once before they made a great show of their fleet sailing around the world to fight the Japanese.

I do recall that did not end well for the Russians.

It didn't begin well either, considering Rozhestvensky's fleet nearly provoked a second war on the way to the first one. The Brits have their backs up because it's Trafalgar Day, but it's also the anniversary of the 1904 Dogger Bank Incident. Perhaps the Russians are actually commemorating their own tradition of creating international incidents in the Channel by limping through an ailing task force escorted by tugs. All they need is a collision or grounding and they can break out the vodka for a toast. :-)

One of these days, I'm going to game that 1904 almost-war. I already have most of the Russian and British vessels in 1/3000 scale, and if I want to expand the fight to a full Franco-Russian vs. British "Trafalgar 1905", I bet I can borrow the French.

- Ix

To answer the OP question "When did an enemy fleet last pass the Dover Straits?": perhaps 1942? (The "Channel Dash" by Scharnhorst, Gneisenau and friends.)

Maybe I'm being picky, but I'm not counting lone U-boots on the way through as "fleets".

- Ix

Agreed lx – she doesn't look too healthy! I have to say that as a 'show of strength' this is hardly impressive, for all the hype.

Channel Dash by the Germans…… Yellow Admiral for the answer to the original question.

Kuznetsov has been plagued by mechanical issues.

Hope the Spanish don't hear about this, since I'm not sure you can count on a second storm to repel another invasion fleet.

Creating an army and fleet to sack the UK just might be good for their unemployment, and might help restock the government coffers as well, which have been flagging for 500 years, or so, assuming they can get to your shores.

Rail, or taxi/bus might work too, I suspect.

If the AdmKuz makes it to Tartus under her own power without incident, it will be no small miracle: link

Good think it has a ski-ramp.

Wonder if it can launch jets from that while anchored, or being towed by a tugboat?

I don't think that the "Channel Dash" by the Scharnhorst and Gneisenau exactly qualifies as an enemy fleet--squadron yes, but one running for its life. I think you would have to go at least as far back as the Battle of Camperdown, depending on exactly how you define the boundaries of the English Channel, to get something that actually qualifies as an enemy fleet.

Well said, Dave Arrowsmith. You're not originally from Gateshead, are you?

I hear Russia has a transcontinental railway, too, while Britain doesn't. The British used to have two or three, IIRC. And their international telegraph cable network has also sadly fallen into disrepair and disuse.

Maybe now that Britain is out of the EU, some of these past symbols of British glory will be restored. I am hoping that they bring back Sharpe's Rifles in all their green glory. They won the war against Napoleon, so it is amazing to me that the muzzle-loading rifle was ever retired.

But the very least Britain can do is build some battleships! I mean c'mon! The Dreadnought is now a submarine! How wimpy is that?

Great responses all round! I would see Russia's fleet as more a "threat" than an enemy. Belching out smoke she may be, the tug boat may be essential and yet, I suspect, like the T34 or AK47 and their crudity, this bit of machinery will keep going whatever.

Arrowsmith raised a laugh here!

Shakes head over stupid baited title, if Russia was an enemy to the so called West we'd know about it.

"…if Russia was an enemy to the so called West we'd know about it", he says, as mobile, nuclear-tipped, SRBMs are rolled into the Baltic region.

"Nothing to see here, move along…..".

Mako 11:

It's just like the nucs in Turkey and then Cuba In the late1950's and early 1960's. Lose the ABM's in Poland and Romania and the mobile nucs will probably go back into storage. The Russians are acting in response to US/NATO policy as they publicly said they would. There should be no surprises here unless one side or the other does something very stupid. I don't think Mr. Putin is a stupid man and I hope we in the West are prudent and careful too.

Cheers.
Rod Robertson.

But the very least Britain can do is build some battleships! I mean c'mon! The Dreadnought is now a submarine! How wimpy is that?

Ask the crew of the ARA General Belgrano.

Luckily it is not as bad as in'42.

I don't think that the RAF has a snowballs chance of getting a Fairey Swordfish pieced together in time to do anything effective.

If they want to see enemy fleets just ask the ex-fishermen to point out the foreign fishing vessels on the horizons of the west ports.

On a positive note, if they do fire on the fishing fleet again,,,

,,,at least no Brits will get hurt.

Actually the Fairy Swordfish belonged to the Fleet Air Arm, not the RAF.

Does the Fleet Air Arm exist now?

Makes me wonder if they will-re-establish it a third time for the carriers? or will it be a fourth time?

Yes the FAA still exist, currently flying mainly helicopters. Not sure what is happening when the aircraft carriers enter service, I think they may be sharing aircraft and pilots with the RAF.

Last I noticed the channel was international waters (and not the private preserve of the UK).

I would see Russia's fleet as more a "threat" than an enemy. Belching out smoke she may be, the tug boat may be essential and yet, I suspect, like the T34 or AK47 and their crudity, this bit of machinery will keep going whatever.

And with a whooping 30+ aircraft, its a real threat…. NOT. And, sorry, the AK47/T34 analogy fails horribly with talking about hi-tech aircraft and ships.

Yes the FAA still exist, currently flying mainly helicopters. Not sure what is happening when the aircraft carriers enter service, I think they may be sharing aircraft and pilots with the RAF.

Never sure on this side of the Atlantic, but I heard there was a serious proposal for the UK to operate their new Carriers, and have France provide the Air Wing.

Doesn't sound like the best arrangement to me, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't work.

Unless the Russian fleet broke down enroute they're long past the Dover Strait and the English Channel. Perhaps it's time to lament allowing them to pass the Straits of Gibralter and then to quiver as they draw too close to the Suez Canal? Really, folks, it's time to drag ourselves into the 21st Century and face the new realities before us. The sun has finally set on the British Empire. The warlike Pax Americana is beginning to crack and sunder. The times, they are a'changin.

Cheers and salutations.
Rod Robertson.

Maybe they'll run out of fuel? link

"Yes the FAA still exist, currently flying mainly helicopters. Not sure what is happening when the aircraft carriers enter service, I think they may be sharing aircraft and pilots with the RAF"

Still see fast jet trg sorties above us from Yeovilton.

Tally Ho!

Regarding the Kusnetsov smoking, that used to be pretty common. US Navy ships were painted black at the stack cap level and above on all masts to hide the soot. In the 70's and early 80's the quality of fuel improved so much that they were able to burn it cleanly and in the late 80's word came down to paint the ships all grey. BTW, with a steam plant it is white smoke that is scary: It means there is too much fuel in the fuel-air mixture. If exposed to a heat source when the cloud starts to disippate it could start a fire or explosion.