"Regt organisation for FP War and Italian Wars of Unification" Topic

I've been trying to find out how many men there were per infantry battalion and/or per infantry regt during these periods for the Piedmontese, Prussian, Austrian and French armies. Also how many battalions per regt.I know how many there were for the Piedmontese army, 4 per regt, and the Austrians 3 plus 1 in reserve, but not the other two countries. I'm trying to get the correct ratio of bases in 6mm for the respective armies. Any help gladly welcomed as usual.

Don't know the actual unit strengths, but both the Prussian and French infantry regiments were organized with three battalions per regiment. In both armies, two regiments were grouped into a brigade and then two brigades into a division. This was the "standard" organization so there were some differences as the fighting went on into 1871. This is especially true with the Republican French armies raised after the frontier battles were completed.

Jim

In 1870 Prussians began the war with about 1,000 per battalion. The French were the same on paper but their botched mobilization sent perhaps 2/3 that number to the front. The rest were in various places in the Empire chasing their orders. This did mean that some trained troops escaped the debacle on the frontiers and were available to leaven the raw masses of the Republican armies. Republican battalions sometimes started their campaigns at full strength, though poorly armed, clad and trained.

Thanks Jim, so basically all countries were the same in terms of the structure, i.e. two regts in a brigade and two brigades per division, it's just the number of battalions per regt that differ, and it being my luck I've chosen to paint the one country that had four battalions per regt first.

Not completely Austria did not use Divisions. Instead each Corps had 3-4 brigades.

I will look up my 1859 rules and tell you specific regimental structures. (you should buy the 1859,1866,1870 rules for this period, just for the reference material)

Average Piedmont battalion was 500 men

The 1859 Austrian regiments had 4 battalions in the field – 1 Grenadier and 3 Fusilier

My opponent has Prussians and he is using 3 bases per Regt with three rows of figures per base to represent the fact that there were 1000 men per battalion.I'm doing Piedmontese at the moment before moving onto the Austrians and have put two rows of troops per base on 4 bases per regt to represent them having fewer men per battalion, but more battalions. So I guess we are both correct thus far. The Austrians have to be able to represent units in the Austro Prussian War as well as the Italian Unification War as well. So some Austrian bases will be added or removed according to the period in question to leave either 3 or 4 per regt.
.Whose rulesets are you refering to please Konstantinos?

Bruce Weigle's rulesets. EXCELLENT reference material in each one.

As a quick sketch, the basic paper organisations for Prussian and French for 1870 and for the Italian and Austrian armies 1859-1866 were:

German States 1870 link
French 1870 link

Piedmont/Italian – Grenadier and line regiments consisted of four battalions, with a theoretical strength of 676 men in 1859 and 600 men in 1866. The bersagliere were in single battalions of 690 in 1859 and 600 in 1866. Cavalry were in regiments of 400 in 1859 and 600 in 1866, line artillery batteries were six guns strong, horse batteries eight guns.

At a higher level the main difference for the Italian armies in 1866 was that the army Increased from five to twenty-one infantry divisions and a corps structure was introduced.

Austrian organisation also differed for the 1859 and 1866

For 1859 the infantry regiments consisted of four battalions each with a theoretical strength of 1326 men. Grenze regiments contained only three battalions. Jägers formed single battalions of 1326 men. Heavy cavalry regiments theoretically consisted of 850 men and light cavalry 1200. Artillery batteries were of 8 guns.

For 1866 the regimental structure remained the same, but the infantry battalions were reduced to 1008 men (grenze battalions 672 men). Cavalry and artillery organisations remained the same as 1859.

The big difference for the Austrians between 1859 and 1866 was that in the former that had a divisional structure (2 brigades each of two regiments), but in 1866 the divisional structures disappeared and the brigades reported direct to the corps commanders.

The main thing is that the Austrian regiments were twice as strong as the Italian ones. How you represent this depends on your rules, but I would suggest that modelling both sides as battalions of three bases may not be the best way to do it.

Maybe give the Austrians four bases per bn and the poor old Italians only two, or converge the battalions if they all have to be same size (as in POW).

At a higher level the main difference for the Italian armies in 1866 was that the army Increased from five to twenty-one infantry divisions

That goes a long way towards explaining their performance at Custozza.

According to the OOB of the Austrian Army on 24 June 1859 as supplied by their military museum, brigades consisted of only 1 x 4 battalion regiment plus jager or grenz. Divisions could be 2 or 3 such brigades. Some average strengths of the infantry including jäger or grenz are:

22.5 battalions – 17.710 men
23.67 battalions -18728 men
24 battalions – 19596 men

Thanks for all the information guys, especially Mark for taking the time to go into so much detail. I was basing my Austrian organisation on what I read in Bitter Victory which says that there were 4 battalions per regt but 3 were used in the field whilst the 4th was held in reserve and only used to bolster the numbers as and when required. It was the conflict between numbers of troops per battalion and the number of battalions per regt in the Austrian and Italian armies that I was trying to balance on the table, because as you say the Austrian battalions were roughly twice the size of Italian ones. Since we use Black Powder currently for our games I can adjust the unit sizes to reflect the manpower within them, large for the Austrians and either normal or small for the Italians. However I'm interested in trying these other rulesets which TBH I didn't know existed until now, thanks Perris.

Chad47 you are indeed correct an Auastian brigade in 1859 comprised one line regiment, one jäger (or grenze) battalion and one battery – misread my own notes. Perris you are also correct in that the fourth battalion was often retained as a depot battalion.

Hi,

Here's Nafziger's Austrian orbat for Solferino:
PDF link
Lots of brigades with nice tidy 4-bn regts.

Montebello was a bit messier.

The Nafziger finding aid is here in case you want to look up other specific battles:
link

Have fun!

Chris

Bloody Big BATTLES!
link
bloodybigbattles.blogspot.fr

Here is Bruce Weigel's info, which I would say is authoritative.

French Corps in 1859

2-3 Divisions of Infantry + 1 cavalry division

Each infantry division=2 brigades
Each infantry brigade= 2 regiments+cahusser battalion
Each regiment=3 Battalions(4th depot stays in France)

Austrian Korps

2 divisions= 4-5 brigades between them
Brigade= 1, four battalion regiment + light battalion

Sardinian Division (did not use Corps)
Division= 2 brigades
Brigade= 2 regiments + bersaglieri battalion
Regiments= four battalions.

1864 Austrians (no divisional commands)
Corps: 4 infantry brigades
Brigade: two regiments + jaeger battalion
Regiment: two battalions
Battalion: three Battalion divisions

Remember in 1866 the Austrians DID use the division both as an agglomeration of Cavalry brigades only, and as an organisational unit in the infantry where it comprised two companies.

According to Casali in a 1859 French division only one brigade had a Chasseurs battalion. Certain brigades had 3 regiments, one of which would be Zouaves or Tirailleurs. Wylly also shows same organisation

Ramming, let us not confuse people with divisions of companies and divisions at the operational level. At the operational level Austrian 1866 infantry Corps did not have divisions as subordinate organisations. This is what I was referring to. In 1859 they did.

You are right Chad. I misquoted Weigel. My apologies.

KT

No problem 😀