"What periods are being run at Fall IN! 2016? Let's see!" Topic

As I have done in the past, I have rolled up the events and done counts on different historical periods for the upcoming FALL IN! convention in Lancaster, PA.

With some heavy caveats, here is the result:

As usual, Historical Games ROUTE Non-Historical Games.

Keep in mind I had to piece the count together from club and non-club data, some categories had to get rolled up in others, and I admit up front some people may not agree with my interpretation of categories as being historical or not.

Link: link

Thanks for your time and thanks for reading.

Walt

Nice Walt
Thanks
Clif

Thanks for the breakdown of the game types. Oddly enough, a pulp game (one of Annemarie D'Amato's Pennsylvania Pete Adventures) sold out _very_ quickly. Apparently there is still a pulse in the non-historical gamers' hearts.

It's a good situation brief. I wasn't as pleased as I evidently was supposed to be with the situation. This is, for crying out loud, the HISTORICAL Miniatures Gaming Society. If you held a model railroading convention and 16% of the events were flower arrangements--or wargames--you'd wonder what went on.

The more we cater to non-historical games and welcome non-historical players, the more the vendors will cater to them. The death spiral follows. One reason I'll be at Fall In is that the local convention went just that way. Next year, could we try for 10% completely outside of our remit?

And homophones. Interstate 30 is a route. What is slowly happening to historical miniatures is a rout.

Thanks Walt. Interesting numbers.

It would also be interesting to see the total numbers or percentages of historical vs non-historical for past years.

FWIW I agree with you inclusion of the "questionable" games as historical. And I agree with your criteria for including them where you did.

Tom

It's a good situation brief. I wasn't as pleased as I evidently was supposed to be with the situation. This is, for crying out loud, the HISTORICAL Miniatures Gaming Society. If you held a model railroading convention and 16% of the events were flower arrangements--or wargames--you'd wonder what went on.

Robert, I'm not sure that's a good comparison. What if there were "futuristic" or "fantasy" trains? Surely the manufacturers would be at railroading shows.

I would guess that a sizable amount of historical wargamers indulge in fantasy, horror, VSF and Sci-Fi gaming. (You may not be one of them). And it's not unusual to have them want to play this at the HMGS conventions, despite knowing what the "H" stands for. I doubt the purely "non-historical" player shows up to Fall-In at all.

I'm also not sure the con is in "a rout" or is in a "death spiral". I don't think the results show that either.

Next year, could we try for 10% completely outside of our remit?

I'm not adverse to that. If enough people think like this then the HMGS board should be made aware of this.

Thanks again Walt, always look forward to your breakdowns not only overall but by era.

Actually, Robert, I meant to type "ROUTED", I apologize for making such a grievous mistake. I admit, I was a little tired and didn't spot my offending "E".

The more we cater to non-historical games and welcome non-historical players, the more the vendors will cater to them. The death spiral follows. One reason I'll be at Fall In is that the local convention went just that way. Next year, could we try for 10% completely outside of our remit?

The reverse of the coin is that historical miniatures outside of Bolt Action and Flames of War doesn't appear to have nearly the drawing power as the "alt games" do. Perhaps the death spiral is more accurately attributable to Historical Miniatures fans actually *dying* and nobody being around to replenish their ranks as the drop out and/or pass away?

I don't see the big tent as being the instrument of our doom, myself.

MARC: follow the link to the post, it's broken out by era and numbers.

Walt

Let me weigh in on the percentage discussion. I have enjoyed the non-historical aspect of games as presented in the past, and hopefully, will enjoy them in future HMGS conventions. Any intentional limiting or shutting out of games being offered at a convention would seem to be foolish and self-destructive, considering some mentions of "empty tables in the Distelfink" and the "unusual absence of the noise of gamers gaming" in somewhat-empty rooms.
Not everyone wants to be serious. I come to a con to enjoy myself, and occasionally, with the help of innovative and creative GM's, assist with a grand production of people enjoying the hell out of a game that may not hold tightly to a historical framework. Play what you want, but don't take away my fun. I hope this Fall-In's lineup is a statistical fluke, and the percentage of non-historical game bounces back to its natural level.

Cap;

Admittedly I only do this when I feel motivated enough to move my lazy carcass to do it, so my statistical sample is smallish. However, I did do the counts for Historicon 2016, and the ratio for that convention was actually 16% (rounding up). See the data here:
link about midway down the post.
So Fall IN! is actually a very small increase, but I wouldn't read too much into it-- maybe after I do six counts in a row, but we don't know enough to plot a trend yet.

Walt

Actually, I do run the numbers sometimes, and 15-17% is probably about normal for the big HMGS conventions these days. I don't think it's gone up or down much in the past five years or so.
But I started counting because some of the major historical dealers had stopped attending and some of the dealers we were getting carried no historical lines. That worried me and still does. As an organization, HMGS was founded to promote historical miniatures, and since, as Walt points out, fantasy and SF games have more "drawing power." We can do ourselves in by being too inclusive.
It's not any objection to SF and fantasy as such. There are dwarves (and squats) enough on my own shelves, and the last game I offered to put on at a convention was Barsoomian. But it wasn't an HMGS convention. HMGS should be a "safe space" for the historical gamer. I don't have to drive 500 miles each way to find a fantasy game. The time was, I didn't have to leave town to find a historical one.
I'd like, truthfully, to get F&SF down to 10%--enough to shelter the little non-GW games and provide something the kids we drag along, without any danger of a dealer bringing his fantasy lines instead of his historical ones.

I've been called a pessimist and an alarmist before. But I've also been right sometimes, and this time I'd really rather not be.

As I said elsewhere, thanks for crunching the numbers, Walt.

I don't look at the numbers and worry about historical vs. non-historical anymore. I like to see what the GMs are serving up each convention. GMs are like chefs: some put out a 5 star product; others serve up fast food. Players can take their pick of what's on the menu. For myself, I wish there were more Colonial games, but for that to happen you need more Colonial GMs. Not everybody can cook up such a game.

For those who are worried about the percentages and the need to keep HMGS "historical", the BOD can do the following: instruct the Tournament Director to give each Convention Director a report on the number of games run for each tournament. They're games, they're all historical and they're at the convention, so they count. Plenty of players just show up to play in tournament games all weekend long.

Once you add in dozens (if not a hundred) historical tournament games, watch the percentages change. I suspect that non-historical will be in the low single digits. Like I said, I don't worry about it anymore.

One last note: WW2 always "wins" in terms of most games because it includes air, sea and land games (like WW1). If I have time, I'll post the list by each subgroup. (Feel free to beat me to the punch, Walt.) Many of the WW2 and WW1 games are airplane games, with some naval for both.

Who knows, maybe that will put SciFi in the top spot?

We'll see.

and the last game I offered to put on at a convention was Barsoomian.

Not to play to your bette noir, Robert, but if you ever consider running said game again, please let me know a little bit in advance so I can schedule for it. I love things Barsoomian.

Walt

Oh look, this discussion again.

Guess what? I play both historicals and fantasy. I am a supporting member of HMGS. I am also running one of those 18 fantasy games this Fall In. It sold out well before the pre-registration deadline. Maybe it was because I openly state children are welcome with a playing adult in my game description and that draws a certain crowd of parent/child that can show up and have fun together. I sure hope so. The hobby could use fresh young faces growing up to enjoy the same things we all enjoy.

It rankles me a bit when people imply my game and I don't belong. I put hours into actually play testing and balancing my scenario to give every player a shot to win and have a good time. Considering some of the unbalanced and untested stinker games I've had the privilege of being a part of in my time coming to conventions I always feel this is important. At the end of the convention I will have played in both historical and non historical games. I come to the convention to have a good time.

The idea that HMGS will be overtaken by non historical games is positively absurd. Then we get into the always fun argument of what is a historical game. Elves and gnomes? Nope, not historical. Of course, Americans vs Soviets with 1943 army lists is just as non historical to me, but the people criticizing the 18 fantasy games wouldn't dare to suggest to the tournament directors holding dozens of such events they should leave. Some of you should be more grateful that the vendor hall is actually full, more games are being played, and more people attending.

Oh look, this discussion again.

Actually, I think of it as a "before you bring it up, again, here are the actual numbers in advance, see, not much change" discussion. :-)

> The idea that HMGS will be overtaken by non historical games is positively absurd.

If only due to the fact that the non historical games have taken over GenCon already.

Let's keep in mind the concept of "If you run it, they will come" for both Historical and Non-Historical games. The whole thing about the draw of a convention is it is consumer-driven. Ideally, enough of _both_ kinds will draw and hold the maximum number of GMs offering, gamers playing, and their (future attendees/participants) families coming along for the ride. That would be the win-win of the whole shootin' match. I'm not trying to raise the ire of dedicated Historical gamers and GMs by attending a "Santa Claus vs. the Nazis" or "Pennsylvania Pete Pulp Adventure" game; I'm a "Live and Let Game" kind of gamer. And I have indeed drooled over some WW2 Naval (last Cold Wars' alternate Savo Island was soooooo tempting--thanks for the offer guys, next time, if I have time), F&IW, Old West, and some of the gorgeous 28mm ACW games I have seen. But, as I am a kid at heart, I tend to go for things that match my "somewhat immature yet fuelled by an old-phart's twisted sense of humor" mentality that draw me to the non-standard, to the "outside the box" aspect that causes some historically-focused gamers to recoil in horror.
To quote the great philosopher Popeye--"I yam whut I yam."

Walt I did, hence my thank you. I know you always provide both and I very much appreciate it.

It has been interesting to see various eras fluctuate over time. It wasnt too many years ago some were trumpeting the impending death of Napoleonics for instance.

Marc

I see non-historical games being like a "gateway" game to kids. I've watch many a kid grow up in the hobby and I've seen them start with some Zombie game or other game that they can understand, that is short, easy to play etc.. Over time I've seen many of them move to the more tactical games, FOW, Bolt Action etc. It's usually these kids who stay in the hobby and who will one day run one of those 1,000 figure ACW or Napoleonic games.

Not that this is what is happening now, but I think trying to limit any type of game genre/system would have bad results for the gaming hobby as a whole.

my $.02 USD

HMGS has always had non-historical games at their conventions, but the reason for the existence of the corporation and its conventions is to promote the study of military history through miniature wargaming. I just kind of find it odd that people know that up front but complain about it not being quite to their liking. It's kind of like going to a pie eating contest and complaining there isn't enough cake.

Moe: "Zombies: the gateway drug to Napoleonics" has got to be my next t-shirt!

……but the reason for the existence of the corporation and its conventions is to promote the study of military history through miniature wargaming.

I think that is for the IRS. I do learn a lot of history through wargaming, but seriously…….I don't need to have miniature figures to study military history. For that, I have books. I'm also not going to Fall-In to promote the study of military history. I'm going to have fun with my friends by pushing toys soldiers across a table.

@ TSD101…….well said.

"Zombies: the gateway drug to Napoleonics" has got to be my next t-shirt!

I don't play Zombies or Napoleonics, but I'd buy that shirt!

Let's keep in mind the concept of "If you run it, they will come" for both Historical and Non-Historical games.

To take a practical view, outside the realm of gateway games and the youth of this fine hobby, etc etc.

Shockingly, I'm for running as many historical games as people submit. Why not? The fact is there is plenty of room (for the most part) in the facilities we rent these days. The problem is, there is plenty of room, but lots of empty tables as well (not all the time, but often). So more historical games need to be run.. but they're not being run. It's better to fill out the space with some fetching eye candy that attracts a certain kind of gamer that might be inspired to play a historical game at the next table-- if not this convention, then the next one. I run a camp every Summer that features some fetching eye candy, and many of my little waifs have come to our conventions as a follow up over the years.

I'm not saying "alt games" should overwhelm historicals, I'm saying alt games don't overwhelm historicals, nor is there any dangers that they will from what I can see, albeit that's my own personal view on things. As it is, I think having games like zombies and frostgrave and steampunk and battletech make a valuable contribution towards transitioning "outsider gamers" into the fold.

Just my 02, worth what you paid for it.

Walt

Aren't there more games being run now that ever before? Didn't the con director just say all the tables are full at FI?

"Zombies: the gateway drug to Napoleonics" has got to be my next t-shirt.

And Copyrighted.

I'll try to get some done for Fall in..

I don't play Zombies or Napoleonics, but I'd buy that shirt!

Count me in!

Walt

Needs to have a picture of 3 or 4 zombies chasing Napoleon on the front. :)

Or a zombie Napoleon vs a zombie Wellington.

Aren't there more games being run now that ever before? Didn't the con director just say all the tables are full at FI?

I take this as a good thing. Especially with how badly this past Cold Wars suffered due to Host worries.

HMGS has bigger problems than worrying about whether Gnome games are taking over the conventions. (They are not.)

Fall In 2016 will probably have over 300 games (plus tournaments) which is almost certainly a record for that convention.

Enjoy the games. Hope to see you there.

I've worked Events at Historicon the last several Historicons. We were BEGGING for historical events on Saturday night-- not fantasy games, but historical ones. Almost every ticket goes.. that's the convention to pre-register for, if you want to actually get in to a game. As in starved for choices. And many, many empty tables. The other side of the coin is GMs have to sign up to run things.

…Mustn't rout, Gnomes will eat me….Mustn't rout, Gnomes will eat me…

Moe, if you print them, I'm up for one--2XL.

"I've worked Events at Historicon the last several Historicons. We were BEGGING for historical events on Saturday night-…"

Well, not surprising since Hcon opens in the middle of the week and a lot of attendees are likely done by Saturday afternoon. Leaving Saturday also saves another hotel room night and avoids a lot of the ugly Sunday I-95 traffic.

Also, the cost of the one day pass and traffic are both killers for day trippers which also might effect Saturday attendance.

It seems to me people have been leaving earlier for a long time now. The question is, is there anything HMGS can really do about that?

As promised, here is a (rough) breakdown of WW2 and WW1 games at Fall In by Land, Sea and Air:

WW2:

Land: 59
Sea: 7
Air: 9

WW1:

Land: 3
Sea: 3
Air: 5

Once again, WW2 Land games top SciFi.

If you add in all the WW2 Land tournament games, the margin only increases.

This is always a troubling topic for me top address. I know what HMGS stands for and I support it.

There are some valid thoughts here though….
1. kids today.. video games over miniatures.
2. WH & WHFB and such IS a gateway game….
3. Lots of older gamers are leaving us to the other side without replenishing their number as their kids (or grandkids)are the ones into aps, ipods and video games…

It is our job to get them into historicals… I admit, I play both and I always will….

Dan

"There are some valid thoughts here though….
1. kids today.. video games over miniatures."

Yes, but kids have always played all kinds of games, so I am not sure this is relevant to worry about.

"2. WH & WHFB and such IS a gateway game…."

I keep hearing that, but even if true, not likely to happen at a historical wargame convention anyway, especially if they have the chance to play a game they already know and like. If this is true the conversion is more likely to occur through a local club. I would also point out the one time HMGS officially sponsored GW games attendance dropped overall. Further, GW stores have shuttered all over the place in my area.

"3. Lots of older gamers are leaving us to the other side without replenishing their number as their kids (or grandkids)are the ones into aps, ipods and video games…"

I would say that I know a lot more living historical gamers that no longer attend than ones who passed away. Then the question becomes, why did they stop attending and will they ever come back?

"Once again, WW2 Land games top SciFi. "

Not surprising given it's a historical miniature convention. That's kind of like saying there are more Toyoto's at a Toyota dealership than Buicks. But you can't say the same is true at Origins or GENCON – which is not surprising as they are gaming conventions, not historical miniature conventions.

Just put on a good convention at a nice and convenient location and let attendance take care of itself. HMGS might try advertising more too.

Dan, Frostgrave and Mordheim are decent gateways, too: short, simple, small-unit scenarios with defined goals, with a tinge of the RPG levelling-up for successful play.
G.A.S.L.I.G.H.T. (thank you Buck and H.A.W.K.s) has the same benefits with the advantage of being wide-open for period or style. The rules also are flexible enough for home-grown modifications that suit the local group.
On the video side: after many years, I have begun to spend time online with War Thunder, getting scores of tanks shot out from under me while I blunder about being a confusing target. It's fun, but it doesn't take the place of miniatures wargaming. Which leads us to your last point--getting kids and youth and spouses to the games to get them bitten by the bug. If they enjoy the experience, whatever it may be, even "Zombie Chaos Napoleonic Gnome Insurance Adjustors from the Planet Zorg vs. Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, and Frosty the Snowman", they will come back to play other, different, games later.