Gone Fishing | 14 Oct 2016 6:44 a.m. PST |
Hello, I just finished Master and Commander and have what I hope is a very easy question (you're permitted to chuckle): At the very end of the novel Aubrey and Maturin watch a sea battle sitting against a rock at Gibraltar (they don't actually see it – it is night and some distance away, but why quibble?), during the course of which one of the British ships, the Superb (Capt. Keats) sails between two Spanish monsters (Real Carlos and Hermenegildo) which proceed to blow each other to pieces. I am assuming O'Brian didn't make this up. Could someone tell me the name of this battle? (I blush to say I'm not even sure of the year. Hopefully that doesn't matter.)It sounds so remarkable I thought I'd read a bit more about it. Second, the two Spanish ships are described as being very big (three deckers, I believe), mounting a dazzling array of ordinance. Can one of you direct me to some good illustrations of that sort of vessel? Were the Spaniards especially fond of big ships like these or was this just the nature of this single engagement? Finally, simply to share, there was a line in the book that particularly stood out to me: speaking of the Spanish, Jack says "They aren't shy, God knows, but they are never, ever, ready." (Quoting from memory, but that's pretty close.) Don't know why, but I found the perception interesting. As you may have guessed, I am an absolute landlubber, so help with any of the questions posed above would be most helpful and appreciated. Thank you! |
ScottWashburn | 14 Oct 2016 6:54 a.m. PST |
2nd Battle of Algeciras link O'Brian sticks to the history! |
John Armatys | 14 Oct 2016 6:58 a.m. PST |
The second Battle of Algeciras, 1801 link |
Gone Fishing | 14 Oct 2016 7:03 a.m. PST |
Gentlemen, thank you! This is why I love TMP. Off to read! |
badger22 | 14 Oct 2016 7:06 a.m. PST |
gone fishing I believe every action in O'Brians books is based off of a real action. The British admiralty did a series of books that listed every action in the period, just name place date participants. Ran to 7 volumes. That is a lot of material to choose from. |
John Armatys | 14 Oct 2016 7:16 a.m. PST |
Gone Fishing, you have a lot of O'Brien books to work through, and the time will pass too fast – they are brilliant. (Make sure that you read them in order, some don't make much sense without having read the one before). My favourite quote, from memory, is "Jack, you have debauched the sloath". |
wminsing | 14 Oct 2016 7:46 a.m. PST |
As for whether the Spanish preferred 'big ships' the answer is no; two-decker 2nd and 3rd rates were far more common (as they were in most fleets), the Real Carlos and Hermenegildo were two of the largest Spanish ships in service and the two largest ships period at the battle. -Will |
Gone Fishing | 14 Oct 2016 7:47 a.m. PST |
Hi John, Yes, I'm quite excited to move on with them: will begin Post Captain this weekend. I read somewhere (TMP?) the books lower in quality as the series goes on. Would you agree? Is there a place where one should stop to keep the glow? Though I promise to read them in order, do the lads ever get posted to the Caribbean/Polynesia/Asia, etc.? Those areas hold a particular interest for me and it would definitely be something to look forward to. Love that quote, by the way! I'll keep a weather-eye out for it. Many thanks again, Daryl EDIT: Will, just saw your post – thank you. If those two are anything to go by, it might have been wiser to stick to the smaller ships… |
Texas Jack | 14 Oct 2016 8:14 a.m. PST |
Gone Fishing- Regarding the quality of the books, I would say it doesn´t diminish at all. I found the 20th book to be as well written as the first, though I think you can see that O´Brian was getting old by that time. Still, great stuff and I urge you to read the whole series. And yes, they do indeed visit the places you mention. |
Dave Jackson | 14 Oct 2016 8:15 a.m. PST |
I never found they suffered as you went along |
Dave Jackson | 14 Oct 2016 8:23 a.m. PST |
Interesting website: link I'd also look for the book: "Trafalgar and the Spanish Navy" by John D. Harbron. An excellent resource link Finally this is a very useful resource: link |
Dave Jackson | 14 Oct 2016 8:30 a.m. PST |
Aubrey's ships in the series: Contains some useful references as well: link |
wminsing | 14 Oct 2016 9:20 a.m. PST |
EDIT: Will, just saw your post – thank you. If those two are anything to go by, it might have been wiser to stick to the smaller ships… Well, most fleets of the era had a pyramidal structure; a few monster first-class ships, a few more second class ships nearly as large, and then the bulk of the fleet was two-deck third rates, the ubiquitous 74-gun being used by nearly everyone. Within this there's some nuance; the British actually preferred fairly big three-deck second-rates well into the period, but France and Spain largely changed over to smaller/handier two-deck second rates. But then the Spanish actually did field a four-deck first rate, and the British reportedly drew up plans for a even larger four-deck first rate of 180 guns…. And of course everyone was using captured ships as well, so the entire topic has layers and layers. If you are just getting into it prepare for a tidal wave of data! :) -Will |
4th Cuirassier | 14 Oct 2016 9:48 a.m. PST |
@ John Armatys Was it his sloth or his potto? Most of my favourite lines involve Stephen. He greets one old acquaintance, "How is your penis?". Another tells Stephen "You have a very ill breath. I should very much like to see your excrement," to which Stephen replies soothingly, "You shall, sir, you shall." The funny lines are always so unexpected… By the way, if anyone who likes O'Brian has not done so, you have to read Mr. Midshipman Easy. It is every bit as funny – at one point the author, Marryat (who served with Cochrane) spends several pages setting up an elaborate gag about Spanish boarding parties and women's underwear. |
John Armatys | 14 Oct 2016 10:51 a.m. PST |
4th. Cuirassier – it was his sloath – Jack had been feeding it cake soaked in brandy. Gone Fishing, I've read them all several times (not something I normally do) except the "The Last Voyage" (which I'm saving for a special treat) and enjoyed every one. |
nvdoyle | 14 Oct 2016 11:09 a.m. PST |
Regarding an ape (a gibbon, specifically), that the crew had picked up: Jack "I thought one of the midshipmen had gone mad." |
keithbarker | 14 Oct 2016 12:00 p.m. PST |
Gone Fishing – as "an absolute landlubber" you might appreciate having the following two books nearby while you read… Harbors and High Seas: An Atlas and Geographical Guide to the Complete Aubrey-Maturin Novels of Patrick O'Brian
A Sea of Words: Lexicon and Companion for Patrick O'Brian's Seafaring Tales
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Gone Fishing | 14 Oct 2016 12:19 p.m. PST |
Jack and Dave, it's great to hear the quality is maintained until the end. This is going to be great fun. Also, I greatly appreciate the websites, Dave. I'll look them over when I have some free time. Keith, you're very kind. Both of those look most helpful. Speaking of guides, does anyone know how this is: link |
keithbarker | 14 Oct 2016 1:49 p.m. PST |
Gone Fishing, yes I have it and its OK but I would suggest Jack Aubrey Commands: An Historical Companion to the Naval World of Patrick O'Brian by Brian Lavery link or just about any book by Brian Lavery (Nelson's Navy is my favorite). |
jowady | 14 Oct 2016 2:31 p.m. PST |
To Gone Fishing; Welcome aboard! Far from the quality dropping I would say it goes up. "Master and Commander" can be something of a slog what with getting used to O'Brian's style and all but I think you're in for a lot of fun. I've just started re-reading the series (I'm up to "The Mauritius Command"). I also second the recommendation for "A Sea of Words", it's a terrific companion. |
Lascaris | 14 Oct 2016 3:00 p.m. PST |
Lobscouse and spotted dog is a cookbook focused on food mentioned in the Aubrey-maturin novels. It even has Miller's in an onion sauce! |
Texas Jack | 14 Oct 2016 3:28 p.m. PST |
Make that a third recommendation for "A Sea of Words", it is a most useful book. |
Gone Fishing | 14 Oct 2016 4:32 p.m. PST |
Keith, Jack Aubrey Commands looks like it might be perfect. Can't tell you how I appreciate the lead. As a fellow who often has to remind himself which side is port and which starboard, I confess to finding M&C something of "a slog" at times(especially the early chapters) – it really is a compliment to the quality of O'Brian's writing that the story still grabbed me and left me thrilled to charge on. A Sea of Words will come in very helpful. What a feast for one's education and imagination! |
Hafen von Schlockenberg | 14 Oct 2016 5:59 p.m. PST |
Bernard Cornwell once said that the problem with O'Brian was that "he makes absolutely no concessions to the modern reader". Of course,with Cornwell,the opposite obtains. |
jowady | 14 Oct 2016 8:43 p.m. PST |
Gone Fishing, Yes, Aubrey and crew do spend time in the Western and Eastern Pacific as well as the Indian Ocean and the Southern Ocean. IIRC they don't serve in the Caribbean. |
Reactionary | 14 Oct 2016 9:59 p.m. PST |
Hafen, very true, very true… |
Temporary like Achilles | 15 Oct 2016 2:01 a.m. PST |
Best series of books I ever read, and the most wrenching to come to the end of. Enjoy! |
Dave Jackson | 15 Oct 2016 6:26 a.m. PST |
keithbarker, I'll second your comment on Brian Lavery. Anything he does is fabulous. I absolutely would be useless without his "Ship of the line" books! |
Blutarski | 15 Oct 2016 1:51 p.m. PST |
Quite concur. My copy of Lavery's "Ship of the Line" is well thumbed indeed. B |