nickinsomerset | 10 Oct 2016 3:27 a.m. PST |
Gents, just getting on with my Russians with the super Perry's Corps deal. On the box it states that the 1809 shako was still in use with some Regiments in 1812. Do any of you helpful chaps know any specific regiments that still had the 1809 shako? Just want to add a little spice to an endless line of 1812 Kiwers! Cheers, Tally Ho! |
SJDonovan | 10 Oct 2016 4:03 a.m. PST |
I don't think this information is known at present (either because there hasn't been sufficient research or because the information just isn't there to be found). I don't think anyone is actually sure when the 1812 coal scuttle-shaped kiwer was introduced and it may not have been in widespread use until 1813. So basically you can put any or all of your 1812 Russians in 1809-style shakos and I don't think anyone will be able to tell you that you are wrong. As ever, Jonathan Gingerich's excellent site is worth consulting. He goes into the subject in some detail: link To find the relevant section, search for the term 'kiver'. |
Greystreak | 10 Oct 2016 4:17 a.m. PST |
Well summarized, SJD. |
nickinsomerset | 10 Oct 2016 7:30 a.m. PST |
Many thanks SJD, Tally Ho! |
vtsaogames | 10 Oct 2016 8:37 a.m. PST |
My buddy's 1812 Russian force has some units in early shakos and some in Kivers. Looks fine. Just as my 1809 Austrians have some units in helmets and some in shakos. |
RittervonBek | 10 Oct 2016 9:05 a.m. PST |
I have Roundway 1809 command with minifigs 2nd generation 1812. I cut the queues but left the earlier knapsack. The difference in headgear does not show markedly. |
Marcel1809 | 10 Oct 2016 10:19 a.m. PST |
For what it is worth, I read, not so long ago, that the special shako we associate with the Russians was only really worn in numbers from 1813 onwards, so hardly any troops would have worn it already at Borodino. Unfortunately I cannot remember where I have read this, I just pass it on as there might be some tread on TMP. I use a 50% mix in my armies but keep units in one type of headgear except some officers in new shako (Kiwer is just another word for shako does not denote the new style headgear, again I was told) and troops in older style, works well for me. |
Cerdic | 10 Oct 2016 1:48 p.m. PST |
I have heard the same as Marcel. There was also a suggestion that the curvy-top shako didn't actually exist. A few Russian officers had them as a 'fashion' thing during the occupation of Paris after Waterloo. Some artist decided to depict all Russian troops wearing them and the 'myth' snowballed from there! Who knows… |
14Bore | 10 Oct 2016 2:06 p.m. PST |
My two cents worth as a Russian aficionado, I see many texts saying old style shakos were still used after they could have been tossed. The scuttle top shako is probably more used later in the Napoleoic wars and gets more publicity than it probably was used. And in past discussions here old style shakos often still had cords attached but good luck in finding a figure with that. So lately I have gone to the scuttle top with cords but have units painted anywhere from 1805 on. |
nickinsomerset | 11 Oct 2016 7:27 a.m. PST |
Cheers Gents going for a bit of a mix by Brigade. Now the forage caps, worn ad hoc by the odd dashing chap who has lost his shako or by a whole unit? Tally Ho! |
Greystreak | 11 Oct 2016 9:11 a.m. PST |
I mix in roughly 2 figures in 'shapka' per 8-figure company, as below. Your own tastes may vary.
|
Jcfrog | 11 Oct 2016 1:52 p.m. PST |
As the new one arrived relatively recently, you can bet that at least the far away corps ( armies of Danude, Finland etc.) would be last on the delivery plan. |
Widowson | 13 Oct 2016 1:31 p.m. PST |
I would expect entire units to be resupplied with anything new. |
seneffe | 27 Oct 2016 1:47 p.m. PST |
There were lots of older pattern shakos in use till at least 1814- eg as shown in the Elbefeld manuscript. However, there are also primary sources which indicate quite a lot of Russians were wearing the new pattern shako as early as Summer 1812. The eyewitness Faber du Four- a Wurttemberg officer with the Grande Armee- clearly shows Russian casualties and prisoners wearing the new shakos in various illustrations of the aftermath of engagements including Borodino and the summer rearguard fighting. So I would say both types were worn in substantial numbers. By which regiments though? That is a largely unanswered (unanswerable?) question. |