"WWII Imagi-Nations Naval" Topic

We'll try and get around the bug
I game in world War Two Naval. I use 1:1200 ships. My games are fleet actions with plenty of air and sea interaction.
I use Imagi-nations. One of the more problematic aspects of this is that ships are well known and players often have difficulty separating the ship model from the statistics. As in Land games, Imagi-Nation afficianados have an eclectic sense of using miniatures and will use all kinds. This can be done in the same way for naval games. The ship model is nominal and merely a token, it is the statistics on the ship card or in the game that is definitive. For example using HMS Agincourt in a slightly modernized version for WWII, as one case or in completely made up models, or a carrier from the imagi-nation of Terramasu called the "Kanukazoo."
Has anyone else tried using the Imagi-nation idea in WWII naval?

Not yet. This would be good for commerce raiding scenarios and small amphibious invasions. Or the 'Everybody into the Pool' fleet action.

Only in so far as using fictional ships. For example USS Bladensburg, a light carrier based on the projected conversion of SS Kungsholm. And the totally mythical Japanese carrier Koryu.

I do a lot of stuff along the lines of Bywater's "Great Pacific War" Interwar stuff in which the proposed post WW1 ships mingle with WW1 survivors that include German, Austrian and French fleets from a WW1 that turned out as more of a stalemate.

I have used it in commerce raiding actions but also in regular conflicts. I do it a lot in my Freeland vs Terramasu conflict to allow the Japanese for once to have superior numbers and not always be under the gun.

In this game the Japanese ships are the empire of Terramasu and have generally their historical stats and values, and largely their numbers. Freeland is like a much weaker United States or Colonial power in the area, perhaps like a much more powerful Australia or a federation of South American states.The Freelandians have a few really good "neato" things but their battle line is old and decrepit , their carriers smaller but better armored and a few others.

I had fun with the names.

The Japanese Kongo class are named

Kongaline
Hiyahawaya
Hammenahammenahammena
Kittenkaboodle.

They have all the other Japanese battleships suitably named
but not the Yamato class.

The Freelandians have most of the South American battleships

Rio by the Sea-0 (Agincourt)
Minieas Mouses (San paolo
Mickeas Mouses (ditto)
Moribund (Moreno
and so forth.
Their carriers are

Back in high school, my buddy and I had a long running imagi-nation naval campaign. The neat thing about imagi-nation ships is that you can make up your own stats (within reason), Most of our ships were very similar to actual WWII warships but we had some with very different stats. For example, my friend had a class of Very Heavy Cruisers (or not quite battlecruisers) that sported eight 10" guns.

Long time imagination in my head. Had drawings of most of the ships when I was young, but lost them a long time ago. I continually revise things when I get around to thinking about it.

I sometimes game with imagi-nations, but use actual ships. Currently I am planning a campaign where a strong nation (mainly Italian but with some Japanese carriers) attempts to conquer a chain of islands belonging to two colonial powers (British and Dutch) and a weak independent state (Polish).
A couple of WW1 era battleships will feature in the colonial forces and perhaps a Dutch never-built battlecruiser. Part of the fun will be creating rules to restrict the tactical manoeuvrings of mixed forces, and perhaps throwing in some political tension between protagonists.

Only in so far as using fictional ships. For example USS Bladensburg, a light carrier based on the projected conversion of SS Kungsholm.

rmaker, I have not heard of this proposed project I and thought I was fairly hip to most proposed US auxiliary carrier proposals. Any details?

-Will

As for imaginations, I haven't done a 'real' imagination for WWII naval warfare (mostly just alternate history), but I'm extremely tempted to whip up some ships for the Avalanche Press Second World War at Sea setting based on the The old shared-fiction Tarrentry setting; Ireland sized island in the Bay of Biscay, French-speaking, smaller but capable navy (think 4 BB's and 4 large Heavy Cruisers in the WWII timeframe). I've also had ideas of an 'Atlantis' fleet (mid-atlantic major naval power) and one based in the South Pacific around an island chain settled by Maori-related peoples. The Maori nation would start off pro-Japan but would 'defect' to the Allies during the war.

-Will

Polmar in US Carriers – A Design Study talks about the Kungsholm. When discussions were under way for the escort carrier conversions, several liners were considered for more deluxe level conversions (including SS Normandie and a German liner whose name I don't recall) . The Kungsholm actually had some serious planning done, but no actual work, since it was decided the liners would be more valuable as transports, and CVL planning shifted to light cruiser hulls.

Things never got far enough along for a name to be chosen, so we picked Bladensburg, as American battles were a common theme. The mere fact that it was a defeat didn't matter – the USN named one the Oriskany, after all.

As for the Koryu, she never actually existed, but was named in several wartime intelligence estimates.

Avalanche Press have a couple of interesting alternate histories with the classic ACW turns out different basis. They offer a fairly plausible weaker South allied to the UK and with heavily UK influenced designs but reflecting a much weaker industrial base thus fewer ships and generally a bit more compromised for cost and a heavily French looking Juene Ecole emphasis on torpedo boats, subs, commerce raiding etc. I made their alternate battle cruiser class of essentially centerline Invincibles in 1/6000 cutting and slicing 2 models to make one and their version of the Iron Dukes with one turret removed. Nice alternate history for a change of pace.

Phil Dunn's Sea Battle Games had a section on this many moons ago.

I ran a solo campaign many years ago with a couple of South American countries fighting over an island in the late 1930's. Presumably about oil, but in the Depression, people fought over just about anything. Maybe it was bird feathers.

Country One bought the two US Florida class battleships. They had also purchased a pair of U.S. Designed heavy cruisers and some destroyers from the same country.There were some older ships for convoy duty.

Not to be outdone, their neighbor, Country Two bought the HMS Tiger and I think three or four British designed eight gun light cruisers plus a handful of destroyers. Again there was a few older ships of limited value in battle.

Faced with having their 'battle fleet' outrun and out-ranged in battle, Country one invested heavily in twin engine bombers suitable for torpedoes and glide bombing. I think it was three squadrons of ten planes each. Two of torpedoes, one of bombs.

In addition, they converted a cargo ship into a small aircraft carrier with about a dozen biplane torpedo bombers.

Today I would have included more seaplanes, as those were thought of as combat capable at the time. The Japanese even used them into WWII.

Flying boats attacking battleships. Now there's a picture. Maybe my escort carrier would have been a seaplane carrier?

The rules I had at the time weren't that good. I wasn't happy with the results. I might try using GQ3 for this if I get around to this.

Too many irons in the fire.

Dear CampyF

That was interesting. Years ago, must have been 25 or so we did a campaign using the South American states as a model but all Imaginary nations. It was a "building program" game where the various participants (five,) all had to map out oa building program for their navies which was couched in with the other policy demands of their countries so you had people squabbling over funds to buy or build ships, or to put them into building roads, sewers schools, or into trade and industrialization. The idea was that players would cant their building programs year by year in the game in response to what the other players were doing. Kind of similar in some ways to yours. Interestingly enough we never got to the war! Actually we did get to the outbreak but no one went to war! Everyone was too concerned with the course of their country to go to war and one of the things we found out was that having nursed their navies along for the alleged 10 years of pre-war peace, and one year of campaign moves, few were willing to risk their capital ships in combat. Players has painstakenly built up their fleets and didn't want to get them damaged. All of them realized the tremendous political and diplomatic power of their ships and many had become quite attached to them.

A highly historical outcome I might add!

Polmar in US Carriers – A Design Study talks about the Kungsholm. When discussions were under way for the escort carrier conversions, several liners were considered for more deluxe level conversions (including SS Normandie and a German liner whose name I don't recall) . The Kungsholm actually had some serious planning done, but no actual work, since it was decided the liners would be more valuable as transports, and CVL planning shifted to light cruiser hulls.

Aha, I heard of the plans for the Normandie but my source had not mentioned the Kungsholm by name. I will have to look up that Polmar book. Thanks for the info!

Things never got far enough along for a name to be chosen, so we picked Bladensburg, as American battles were a common theme. The mere fact that it was a defeat didn't matter – the USN named one the Oriskany, after all.

Yes, I think Bladensburg is actually a fantastic name.

As for the Koryu, she never actually existed, but was named in several wartime intelligence estimates.

Yes, I've fielded the Chichibu before, which was a Japanese improvement on the 'pocket battleship' concept which also happened to exist only in the minds of USN war planners….

-Will

@Ottoathome – Campaign sounds like a blast anyway! I agree that if you put the players in charge of preparing for the war they often decide they would not have to FIGHT the war. :)

-Will

Dear Wminsing

Yes completely. It was a huge amount of fun. That frequently happens when you get the right mix of players. What was interesting was that there wasn't much to the game in the way of rules and background materials, just an idea and some basics like a few Janes. What was interesting was how the game "slid off the tracks" several times and was taken over by players desire to not mind that it did.

Two of the players were in a later International War Game I umpired and they "went their own way" too. They cared about "winning" the game but both of them wanted to do it in a different way than just going out and conquering things. (It was set in the Ancient world). I always looked forward to their moves. One never knew what they were going to come up with next.

My own participation was governed by the desire to gain the utmost POLITICAL benefit for the minimum expenditure. My fleet as it turned out was extraordinarily good looking and impressive, but would have crumpled like a wet tissue had it gone into battle. What had impressed me about these things was how much credit a state got for even having a simulacarum of a fleet. In particular the South American Republics for having just a few modern ships though manned woefully inefficiently. I'm afraid I ran my country pretty much with the game of Junta as a role model.

Love the idea of Imaginations – Viva Parazuela!! My favoured periods for them are immediately post war, often against a real-world opponent, or the ironclad era.

I've dreamt up quite a few over the years but most never get played – but I have a love of maps and history(so I'm not alone here then!) so my doodles in meetings can quite often end up being a map, a flag and a sketch of a ship!

I did play one solo once, based loosely on an episode of 'Yes Prime Minister', where the RN had to reimpose civilian government on Saint Georges Isle (fictional, in the Indian Ocean) after a military coup.

Terrific fun.