Formerly 298TYR | 29 Sep 2016 1:21 p.m. PST |
This is mainly a question for UsmanK and I'm hoping his sources may provide an answer. The 6th Guards Independent Motor Rifle Brigade in Berlin had 3 tank battalions and I've seen several times a figure of 141 tanks listed. What I'd like to know is the distribution / organisation of the 3 battalions because that doesn't seem to add up. If they were 31 tank battalions it would be 90+ tanks and if each battalion had 40 tanks it would be 120+. 140+ plus tanks seems an odd figure and doesn't seem to fit the normal patterns. |
GarrisonMiniatures | 29 Sep 2016 1:30 p.m. PST |
Spoke to someone who used to be involved in the various train runs and he said that there were a lot of Soviet tanks ranked there for show – seems they would be lined up en masse to be visible to Allied staff, but a closer look showed that the front row was kept in good order, but as you took a closer look at rows further back they were obviously not being maintained! So it is likely that a number of unserviceable tanks could have been on the establishment for propaganda purposes… |
Mako11 | 29 Sep 2016 1:39 p.m. PST |
Depending upon the period, and unit(s), there could be 31, 41, or even 51 (50?) tanks in a battalion. That's based upon Cold War reports and intel, so could be wrong. I knew about the 31 and 41 tank units, but was surprised to read about the larger, 51 tank unit. |
CAG 19 | 29 Sep 2016 2:47 p.m. PST |
The 141 figure is reported in the 1990 CFE Census figures. 40 per battalion seems reasonable leaving 20 to be accounted for which could be attributed to other units in Karlhorst at the time of the census, which also includes driver training and lookalikes. The 1990 report coincides with a Recon battalion also being present. Must admit I thought that the Berlin brigade had an extra MRB and not two additional TBs in the early 1980s. The USMLM reports don't help any. |
Mako11 | 29 Sep 2016 6:51 p.m. PST |
2 x 50, and 1 x 40 gets close. Plus, IIRC, there were certain agreements between the former "allies" as to how many units could be stationed in Berlin. The British added extra tanks to their unit(s) in Berlin, Chieftains, in order to strengthen them a bit, again, IIRC. Saw that mentioned here on TMP. |
nickinsomerset | 30 Sep 2016 3:59 a.m. PST |
Every time we tried to look over the wall at the Karlhorst War Museum, someone shouted at us!! Tally Ho! |
M1Fanboy | 30 Sep 2016 6:38 a.m. PST |
Both the British and the Americans added extra tanks to their units in Berlin..I am not 100% sure about the French. |
Vostok17 | 30 Sep 2016 10:04 a.m. PST |
Hello, Formerly 298TYR! As of January 1, 1987 in the brigade had 150 tanks (mainly T-64, but there were 25 T-80). link As a part – 3 tank battalions (53, 54 and 65). If you believe the forum "Back to the GSVG" that tank bat. was on the 49 tanks (16 per company (x3), in the company – 3x platoon (5 tks.) + 1 tank (company comander)) + 1 tank (battalion commander). Total must be 147 tanks. link And why does not correspond to the number of tanks – God knows. I could not find exact information. Most likely, because at the end of the 1980s no one believed in the war, and the 6th Brigade was transformed into a ceremonial unit. |
CAG 19 | 30 Sep 2016 10:33 a.m. PST |
Interesting that it says it still had T-62 until 1986. Or rather it only had T-62 from 1982-1986 |
Vostok17 | 30 Sep 2016 10:59 a.m. PST |
Hello, CAG 19! Here in general there is nothing surprising. Rearm especially those units that needed it. Apparently, there is the T-55 (which were in the brigade to T-62) were second-hand. link A Berlin Brigade had to act together with a huge number of units NNA GDR (Motorized Rifle Division, nine border regiments, etc.). And, accordingly, it makes much sense to re-equip the team in the first place was not. |
Formerly 298TYR | 30 Sep 2016 1:50 p.m. PST |
Thanks for the input, especially UsmanK. I know the Back to GSFG site very well and have used it as a source for first hand information for many years. Somehow I missed the breakdown of the Tank Battalions in 6th Ind Gds MR Brigade, so thanks for pointing that out for me. Nickinsomerset – I visited the museum at Karlshorst myself years after the Russians left and got caught poking around out the back after checking out the vehicles on display outside. Some workmen basically told me to leave as I was checking out the old barracks – so some things don't change ! I've visited quite a number of the old soviet garrsions and sites since they left – in some places there's still plenty to see, in others everything's flattened. |
CAG 19 | 30 Sep 2016 1:55 p.m. PST |
Thanks UsmanK, So much disinformation during the Cold War. We always assumed for example we would face 3rd Shock Army but the later reorganisations call that into doubt of why GSVG would lead with a Tank Army. But NATO seems to have ignored the change over…..lots of very interesting what ifs… From the records you provided the 6th Guards title wasn't awarded until quite late in the period. Can you explain how the brigade changed structure over time. |
Formerly 298TYR | 30 Sep 2016 2:16 p.m. PST |
CAG 19 – very true – and 3rd Shock Army hadn't been called that since the 1950's, which I can't believe our side didn't really know or pick up on ! Someone – possibly yourself, mentioned elsewhere that "our" ie 1 BR Corps opposition would actually have been 20 Guards Army IIRC, not something I'd come across myself so would love to know where the references are for that. I did see one reference in the USMLM annual reports which mentioned an exercise involving 3OA where they appeared to be practicing a strike south west from the Magdeburg area. That's interesting as it would put an advance towards the Harz mountains or possibly just north of that. |
Vostok17 | 30 Sep 2016 2:57 p.m. PST |
Hello, Formerly 298TUR! But not for that. I myself accidentally found the information. Hello, CAG 19! Oh, it was a lot of misinformation on both sides. For example, in the NATO and Warpac books of those times of the probable enemy often written either outdated information, or very fierce delirium (remember the old Jane's were mixed T-64 and T-72, well, frame from "Full Metal Jacket" was placed in the Soviet book about the US army).
I do not really understand the question (my English is still orcs from Warhammer level), but as I understand it, you are asked how the structure of the brigade changed over time? Regarding the change of structure – as far as I know, the brigade remained virtually unchanged between 1986 and 1991. The changes were largely cosmetic – the creation of the guard of honor, a partial re on a new technique. What was connected awards – most likely, with the twentieth anniversary of the creation team. And the following periods can distinguish itself in the life of the brigade during the Cold War: 1961-1962 Creating. Initially, the brigade – fully motorized infantry. Four motorized infantry battalion, an BTR-152 and BTR-40. The battalions were tank companies on the T-34 and SU-100. Also in 1962 came two tank battalions in the T-54, T-34 and SU-100. The composition of the 4 motorized rifle BN and two tank battalions. 1967. Design of the structure, which lasted until the early 1990s – 3 mechanized infantry battalion and three tank battalions. It disbanded one mechanized infantry battalion, on the basis of which the tank battalion was created (+ from the other battalions of motorized infantry tank companies received this brigade were withdrawn). Around 1973-1974 rearming brigade with T-54 to T-55. A T-34 and SU-100 to the point, probably at the brigade armed with was gone. 1976 – the beginning of the re-arming on BMP-1 (2 battalions). The third battalion was rearmed in the BTR-60. 1982 – became Guards Brigade. In the same year – re-arming from T-55 to T-62 (it is necessary to take into account that those tanks were second-hand). 1986 – re-armed on the T-64. 1987 – re-armed on the T-80, BTR-80 and BMP-2 (not complete). In the same year company disbanded, guarding Spandau prison. 1991 – disbanded one mechanized infantry battalion. |
Formerly 298TYR | 30 Sep 2016 3:39 p.m. PST |
UsmanK – thanks for the further info. It's always good to have a Russian to translate and don't worry, your English is very good ! I see the T-62 were second hand, I imagine the T-64 would have been as well. I have seen some pictures on Russian websites showing the Brigade using a 3-colour camouflage on the BMP, not sure if the T-62 / T-64 or T-80 received the same ? |
Charlie 12 | 30 Sep 2016 5:01 p.m. PST |
UsmanK- Great information! Thanks for that! Oh, it was a lot of misinformation on both sides. For example, in the NATO and Warpac books of those times of the probable enemy often written either outdated information, or very fierce delirium (remember the old Jane's were mixed T-64 and T-72, How well I remember THAT. Try as they may, our intel wonks had the Russian tank deployment and development COMPLETELY messed up. It wasn't until after the Wall fell that things finally started to get sorted out. well, frame from "Full Metal Jacket" was placed in the Soviet book about the US army). Now that's funny! |
Vostok17 | 01 Oct 2016 5:21 a.m. PST |
Hello, Formerly 298TYR! Yes, tanks and infantry fighting vehicles of the Berlin Brigade was camouflage. That is:
But camouflage began to be applied as early as 1991, after the collapse of the USSR. Prior to this, all the equipment has been colored green (4BO). Markups, camouflage intended to apply only in the event of war (even published an album with typical application circuits of camouflage). Hello, Charlie 12! More remember in our school was an old Soviet-style poster "Know and be able to recognize the NATO technique", dedicated to the Bundeswehr. There, among other things, it was painted a chymerical hybrid M-114 and Bradley, called "M-113". The poster was printed by the Military Publishing House (Voenizdat) of the Ministry of Defense of the USSR …
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Formerly 298TYR | 01 Oct 2016 7:59 a.m. PST |
Yes – that's the scheme I was thinking of. But only from 1091 ? That means the T-64 would have been plain green, which answers my question. Many thanks |
Vostok17 | 01 Oct 2016 9:42 a.m. PST |
Hello, Formerly 298TYR! In general, everything was easier. This is ceremonial painting. Repainted in the 1994. panzer35.ru/forum/22-14750-1 So most likely the T-64 were just green. |
Formerly 298TYR | 01 Oct 2016 10:05 a.m. PST |
I have some 6mm T-80 painted in that scheme – I hadn't realised until you and another mentioned it elsewhere that this was used basically when the units were pulling out of Germany. I did see a photo once in the USMLM annual reports of T-62 in camo paint, unfortunately the unit was not mentioned and the picture was in black and white ! |
Vostok17 | 01 Oct 2016 10:32 a.m. PST |
Hello, Formerly 298TYR! Camouflaged tanks (and other equipment) were really in GSVG. There have been specifically approved by the camouflage patterns. Camouflage was applied by personnel of military units, if necessary. So there is nothing criminal in general is not – the war would probably preceded by some kind of phase (well, for example, the frequent provocations, something else of the sort), during which the demand could put camouflage on all equipment. There is excerpts from the album on application of camouflage: link Actually, the standard summer camouflage for tank looked like this:
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