"Force on Force newbie question" Topic

Just so I'm sure I understand how activation and actions work would the following be permissible:

A regular fire team of four men with 2 Light support weapons activates and fires at an enemy unit. It then moves tactically 2" to a new position where it announces it will fire on a different enemy unit (this will be at -2 firepower, one for having fired already and one for moving). The same fire team then moves tactically another 4" (therefore ending any further possible movement having now gone the full 6" allowed for tactical movement) and once again fires on an enemy unit, this time with a net -4 firepower (fired twice and moved twice). As the team still has firepower dice remaining it takes another fire action, this time with a net -5 (3 fire attacks and 2 moves).

All this assumes the team has survived any reaction fire etc from enemy units.

Hmmm, it is a good long while since I played FoF, but I seem to recall that you can move only once. Could be wrong though…

The rule book only allows one reaction move per turn, but it doesn't appear to place the same limitation on the initiative player's movement. In the section on diminishing fire it says a unit loses one die of firepower "each time it moves as part of an activation…". It's the term "each time" that caused me to pose the question above.

Sounds to me like you may be firing too many times.

At the beginning of the activation you announce what you are going to do, which IIRC is fire then move or move then fire. The opponent then announces reactions. This may then trigger more firing aka rounds of fire. You do not lose firing dice for moving but lose 1 die and 1" of movement for each reaction.

That's how I play it.

Mike

Page 39 of the rule book on Diminishing Fire, it says

"the more frantic a unit's movement and fire becomes, the less effective it is. To represent this, a unit's Firepower diminishes the more it does in a single turn.

The first time a unit fires per turn, it uses its full Firepower. After that, a unit lose s one die of Firepower:

-each time it fires as part of an activation, reaction or overwatch.
- each time it moves as part of an activation, reaction or moral test failure."

The talk of frantic movement and fire implies multiple opportunities to move and fire, but with diminishing effect. This seems to make sense to me. While it seems a lot, the unit will receive reactive fire from any unit it fires upon and will be attacking with less and less firepower, so it may not always be a smart move.

I always read it as one move, multiple firings. But you may very well be correct. Glad I could help :)

Don't have the rules to hand, but the way we have played it is:

A regular unit who has the initiative, can be activated.
Basically it may fire, move and fire or fire and move. The choice is announced to the enemy players (so they can react if desired and able).

So, for example, an initiative unit announces it will move and fire at an enemy unit. The player shows where the unit is moving and points out the target. Enemy units can react (with fire or movement) at any point in the move (assuming they have a LOS). If an enemy unit reacts with fire, the initiative unit can fire back as part of the round of fire (at the point in its move it was fired on). Note multiple enemy units can try to react and fire at the initiative unit. If the initiative unit survives reactions, it completes its movement. Then it can fire at its original target (with -1 to its FP for each time it fired as part of the enemy reaction).

Plays easier than it writes. And I'll have to check the book when I get home, to make sure.

Mike

I'd always understood that as the active unit does something, then every unit that can react rolls to see if they react before or after the active unit.

Then you have multiple individual firefights, where the active unit loses one die after each firefight.

At some point in the cascade, the active unit gets its one declared shooting action from the initial activation.

You do NOT get to have multiple actions per unit outside of the firefight reactions.

Lion---that is what I understand also. And, irregular units (such as Fedayeen or local Taliban), only get to do something once, either as a Reaction or as their activation in the non-initiative turn.

So your US fireteam announces a move from the truck they were walking next to into cover, then firing on the insurgent HMG team Alpha.

Insurgent teams Bravo, Charlie, and Delta (as well as the HMG team Alpha) all roll to react. Bravo beats the US team, everyone else doesn't beat the US roll.

Rules as written, you then move the US fireteam, then each insurgent team shoots a round of fire starting with the closest.

My houserule is that you'd roll Bravo's fire against the US (and the US teams return fire) before moving the US team into cover, then all the rest of the fire actions.

In either case, the US team fires with full effect against Bravo, -1 die against the HMG team, -2 against Charlie, -3 against Delta (assuming that Charlie is closer than Delta).

If a team is badly outnumbered enough, they can have no effective fire. With a typical US fireteam of 4 with 2 support weapons, you'd need to be outnumbered at least 6:1 in that reaction cascade.

But the US team only gets to *declare* fire against one target per turn. All the other firing they get to do is against teams reacting to their action, which is why it's at reduced effect.

Lion

I use a similar house rule. Reacting force declares where each reaction takes place before/during/after the initiative unit's move. Resolution is then done in chronological sequence with ties decided by proximity.

To me, this seems more intuitive. A "reaction" is an attempt to interrupt the initiative unit's action. If may succeed or fail. If a unit attempts to react with fire on a moving unit, and fails, the moving unit can decide to not engage in a round of fire – this can be useful if it's declared movement would take it out if LOS.

For what it is worth – seems to work for my group.

Thanks for the answers. So what movement would the diminishing fire rule be referring to?

"The first time a unit fires per turn, it uses its full Firepower. After that, a unit lose s one die of Firepower:

- each time it moves as part of an activation, reaction or moral test failure."

What do they mean by "each time it moves as part of an activation" and at what point in the move would it apply?

I would just ignore the "each time it moves as part of an activation" phrase. My group plays a good bit of FoF and we play as Lion describes. The authors have lots of these vague phrases sprinkled through the rules, mostly they are unnecessary and sometimes they conflict with other phrases. The basic mechanics in FoF are good, but trying to parse everything in the RAW is a bit futile.

I don't remember being able to move in reaction, but it's been a while since I played.

You may have to move to cover as a result of failing a morale test after a round of fire, which would further reduce your firepower above the usual -1 die for each round of fire after the first.
Continuing my example earlier, say the HMG team Alpha forces a morale test due to casualties that the US team fails. The US team then falls back, so exchanges fire with Charlie at -3 dice instead of -2. Charlie also causes a morale check, and the US is having a really bad day so fails that one, too. After falling back twice, the round of fire with Delta is at -5 dice instead of -3 from my first example.

Thanks everyone, that clarifies things a lot. As Kelly says the key mechanics seem very good, but the rule book doesn't always help. I really think when a rules writer introduces concepts that are new they need to go to great pains to ensure the rules are written well and are as tight and concise as possible.

The game is awesome. unfortunately the rulebook is anything but; really among the worst written/laid out rulebook ever (tieing with DBM).

The newer books, like Tomorrow's War, do a better job conveying the same info.