SJDonovan | 17 Sep 2016 1:59 a.m. PST |
Would the pipers of the 71st Regiment have worn reversed colours like the drummers? Also, would the pipe bag have been plaid or plain? |
olicana | 17 Sep 2016 4:32 a.m. PST |
The pictures I have seen are with red coat. link |
Winston Smith | 17 Sep 2016 4:46 a.m. PST |
Pipers were not included in the Warrant, nor were they carried "on the strength" as musick. Technically, they were paid directly by the Colonel of the regiment. They wore a plain uniform. The bag was tan. |
SJDonovan | 17 Sep 2016 4:55 a.m. PST |
Thanks guys. Much appreciated. I can keep painting. |
piper909 | 17 Sep 2016 8:20 a.m. PST |
Pretty much what they say above. Since pipers were not covered by regulations, they were generally clothed at this time the same as the rank and file, altho' a colonel's whim could change that -- there are references to the 78th's pipers (slightly after this era) wearing buff coats with green facings. But almost every contemporary illustration shows pipers in red coats at this time, and well into the 19th century. The pipe bag cover, however, would likely have been in the regimental tartan. If a pipe banner is carried, it is probably in the facing color with a regimental device displayed. |
Supercilius Maximus | 18 Sep 2016 7:06 a.m. PST |
Pretty much what the others have said, except for pipe banners – given that a piper would be paid for by either the CO or a company OC, he would have the choice of banner and (if he had one) would normally place his own family crest on it. This still happens today in some regiments (see the banners of Scots Guards pipers). Pipers were, at the time of the AWI, generally either a personal servant, or a man in the ranks who happened to be able to play. I think even today, most Highland regiments clothe their pipers differently from the drummers and other bandsmen. |
Winston Smith | 18 Sep 2016 9:04 a.m. PST |
Interesting, because the Warrant specifically forbids personal heraldry on flags. You can see some heraldry on British flags before. I think I saw a Regimental Colour from the WSS with an ermine field in one of those lovely flag books. |
piper909 | 18 Sep 2016 1:00 p.m. PST |
Yes, that was my thought on pipe banners, altho' at such an early period, with off-the-books musicians, who knows what was enforced or not? And the Guards division has long been a law unto themselves. I was thinking of the well-known contemporary illustration of a piper from among the Black Watch mutineers c. 1743, his pipe banner is shown as a red St. George's cross on a buff background (the facing color of the time). Regimental publications of the Queens Own Highlanders (the successor regiment) describe the 72nd Highlanders' pipe banners as buff or yellow silk, "fish-tailed", with "Regimental Crest and Motto on both sides". The 79th Cameron Highlanders' pipe banners are only described as "blue" in an undated reference (but probably from after the regiment's royal status in 1873). But all these are long after the American revolution. |
SJDonovan | 19 Sep 2016 3:49 a.m. PST |
Thanks for the information guys. Fortunately for me I don't have to worry about pipe banners because the figures I am using have been modeled without them (and I'm not sure my painting skills are quite up to family crests on 15mm figures). |
42flanker | 20 Sep 2016 1:46 a.m. PST |
Check out the paintings of the 25th on Minorca circa 1769-70. Albeit, not a Highland regiment there is a piper shown in one of those pictures. On the move can't upload or find a link just now. |
SJDonovan | 20 Sep 2016 3:26 a.m. PST |
Thanks 42flanker. Is this the painting you mean?
The piper appears to have a tan pipe bag. The low fur caps worn by some of the men are interesting as well. They look like pioneers' caps but the men don't look like pioneers to me. Then again, I suppose if you are an officer of pioneers you wouldn't be swinging an axe yourself. From: link |
Supercilius Maximus | 20 Sep 2016 6:28 a.m. PST |
Given the date of the painting, c.1771, it could be an early form of headgear for the newly resurrected Light Company. It would be most unusual for there to be a pioneer officer, much less two (chap on far right, beside the piper) as there were seldom more than a dozen pioneers (if that, they still weren't official) in a single battalion; they were usually under the command of a corporal. And yet another regiment with white bearskins for the fifes and drums (fifer in the foreground and another drummer/fifer further back and just above his head); also another fifer in a further picture in this series:- link |
historygamer | 20 Sep 2016 10:02 a.m. PST |
Note: The men (officers) who appear to be in pioneer caps are clean shaven, not bearded. They are not likely grenadier officers as they don't sport epaulets on their left shoulders. They both sport over the shoulder sword belts, unlike all the other officers. The one on the left must have his out of the carriage as it is too high otherwise. If they are Lights they should have two shoulder epaulets or wings. They also sport spatter dashers instead of full length gaiters. The officers all wear their sword belts under their waistcoats. Odd that they all seem to wear their sash knots on the wrong side – should be the left side, not right. The piper was not usually found in non-highland regiments. Do we know this chap belongs to the regiment largely pictured? If so, then he wore what the colonel told him to wear. I am assuming the colonel is pictured in the center hold a small stick in his hands. The tall officer in the embroidered coat might be a major general. His cuffs are the small type, he has a standing collar, and his embroidered coat supports that idea as well. |
Supercilius Maximus | 20 Sep 2016 10:34 a.m. PST |
If they are Lights they should have two shoulder epaulets or wings. They also sport spatter dashers instead of full length gaiters. The uniform for "Light" personnel was probably still in some sort of transition at that time – remember that this is 1771 at the latest and so the company may only just have been formed. However, the spatter dashes and the shorter coat on both figures, which I've only just noticed, might also be a clue to them being "Lights" (as might the broadswords being carried by both). |
historygamer | 20 Sep 2016 10:48 a.m. PST |
Could be. I forget the year Lights were re-introduced, but I want to say late 1770. No Royal Warrant covered their kit at this time, so maybe. :-) |
SJDonovan | 20 Sep 2016 2:33 p.m. PST |
Maybe they are lights? They are both quite lean-looking chaps, slightly less paunchy than some of the other officers. Okay, I am clutching at straws here … |
42flanker | 21 Sep 2016 3:09 a.m. PST |
Yes, that is the picture. The men in the low, fur-trimmed caps are generally thought to be from a 'Piquet Company' that existed in the 25th prior to the authorisation of Light Companies for infantry regiments in late 1770. (I don't believe beards would feature on the faces of infantry Pioneers till much later) Known originally as the Earl of Leven's or Edinburgh Regiment 25th were a regiment with long established Scottish connections, despite their being (briefly) titled the 25th (Sussex) Regiment in 1782. This name was chosen for the convenience of their Colonel (from 1762, Lord Henry Lennox, the Duke of Richmond whose seat was at Goodwood in that county). Lennox was nominally a Scotsman. So the piper belongs to the 25th. |
Supercilius Maximus | 21 Sep 2016 6:34 a.m. PST |
In 1787, Charles Lennox (4th Duke of Richmond) joined the 35th Foot and, having recruited substantially from his estates at Goodwood, petitioned the King for the 35th and 25th to swap titles, which meant that from 1804, the latter briefly became the Dorsetshire Regiment for about a year, before reverting again to a Scottish title – the King's Own Borderers – in 1805. |
historygamer | 21 Sep 2016 10:42 a.m. PST |
Confusing as county designations didn't come into effect till the end of the war. The connections weren't always strong before, as shown by the book on the 23rd that wasn't all that Welsh at the time. Funnier still that late war highland regiments did all wear kilts either. I have no idea how Scottish this regiment was in 1770. But the colonel's could do much of what they liked and based on the paintings it certainly appears to be a well turned out regiment. |
Supercilius Maximus | 21 Sep 2016 11:18 a.m. PST |
Whilst there were no "regimental depots" prior to 1782, it is worth noting that some (though by no means the majority) of corps had regional connections prior to the allocation of county affiliations. The 33rd Foot and Yorkshire being one such, having recruited widely there; another was the 5th Foot with the Dukes of Northumberland (not so much the county itself), which reflected the initial allocation of Sussex to the 25th as it was the Colonel's country seat. |
Virginia Tory | 23 Sep 2016 8:07 a.m. PST |
Interestingly, pipers do show up in non "Scots" regiments. The 20th of Foot had one during the Peninsular campaign, as an officer commented on his loss at the battle of Roncesvalles in 1813. Pretty sure the only "official" music in highland regiments were the fifers and drummers. |
42flanker | 26 Sep 2016 7:54 a.m. PST |
Interestingly, pipers do show up in non "Scots" regiments. The 20th of Foot had one during the Peninsular campaign, as an officer commented on his loss at the battle of Roncesvalles in 1813. Interesting. Despite the 'East Devonshire' title, there was a fair leavening of Scots officers in the XXth at that time. The Colonel was Lieutenant-general Sir John Stuart and in June 1813 Robert Ross, Lieutenant-colonel commanding the 1st Bn XXth, had been succeeded by Lieut-colonel Wauchope, an ill-fated surname- who commanded at Roncesvalles only to be mortally wounded a week later at Echallar. Nonetheless, the reported presence of a piper in an 'English' regiment is intriguing. One wonders how much the efforts of a piper would have been appreciated in a battalion that between 1797 and 1809 had been recruiting up to strength from county militia the length of England. Admittedly, by the end of that period, many of those men would have been casualties or discharged. More recently, between June 1810 and September 1812, the XXth were stationed in Ireland and presumably had recruited locally during that time. Perhaps Irish recruits would have been more sympathetic to the sound of the pipes. link |
piper909 | 08 Nov 2016 3:29 p.m. PST |
I have on my shelves a 1985 regimental publication "Pipes and Drums of the King's Own Scottish Borderers" [nee 25th Foot] by Hiram Dunn that I just went to find and thumb through. It's fascinating that a nominally Lowland Scots regiment maintained such a strong Highland piping tradition, as illustrated by the painting above. (That's the colonel's wife, BTW, Lady Luisa Lennox, sitting on the drum.) An inspection report dated 13 May 1768 notes the 25th "Have a bag-piper in the band of music" which accounts for this piper being uniformed in a bandsman's reversed-colors coat; it also implies he was unique. But a tradition was being established. Pipers are still noted in the 25th during the early and mid-19th century despite lack of formal authorization. The piper here wears the Government ("Black Watch") tartan but at some point in the 19th century -- possibly as early as when the regiment became "Royal" in 1805 -- pipers began to sport the Royal Stuart (or Stewart) tartan which was adopted by many Scottish bandsmen and pipers, becoming then as now a popular "musicians'" tartan. The 25th's pipers were at last authorized at the same level as bandsmen in 1854. Piper Daniel Laidlaw, VC, was celebrated as the "Piper of Loos" in 1915. The 1st and 6th battalions of the KOSB were piped ashore on D-Day, less famously than Piper Bill Millin's exploits with the Commandos. Pipers of the 7th Bn. played at company rallying points at the airborne landings during the battle of Arnhem. None were spared becoming a casualty or captive during this battle, since as stretcher bearers they were left behind to tend to the wounded when the rest of the battalion was withdrawn. Other pipers led attacks near Kohima in the Far East theatre. The last occasion when the KOSB pipers played men into an attack is recorded in Korea in 1951. The modern pipe banner carried by the Pipe Major is noted as bearing the arms of the Colonel in Chief, while the pipe banners carried by pipers bear the regimental crest on one side and the Edinburgh City coat of arms on the reverse, both patterns with gold fringe. Ceremonial pipe banners presented by various cities or towns as badges of respect would show the arms of those places and are kept in the regimental museum or officers' mess. |
42flanker | 08 Nov 2016 6:25 p.m. PST |
Given that the 42nd `royal Highland Regimen didnt adopt Royal Stuart Tartan for regimental pipers till the mid-C19th, it probable that other regiments didn't adopt special piper's tartan till later. I believe the origins of the Royal Stuart tartan lie in the 'King's Jaunt' of 1822, when George IV visited Edinburgh, and to feed the new fashion for Highland dress, astute cloth merchants started classifiying setts according to specific clans or families. |