"Two great Napoleonic paintings from Detaille and Meissonier" Topic

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LES DEUX AMIS (The Two Friends), painted by Ernest Meissonier in 1874.

From Sotheby's catalogue: "Les Deux Amis, by contrast, does not represent a specific historical scene. Here, Meissonier imagines a meeting of the hussars [actually Chasseurs a cheval of the French Imperial Guard] and dragoons of the First Empire [Napoleonic Era], shaking hands before battle. His attention to detail is extraordinary, and is clearly seen in the intricately detailed regalia, gestures and expressions of the soldiers as well as the saddles and bridles and anatomical exactitude of the horses, Meissonier carefully researched, sketched and planned every element of the composition (he even built wax models for the horse in his paintings, see lot 101). The resulting compositional arrangement is deceptively complex, and a marvelous tour de force.

This painting marks an important rediscovery for the artist, its location was unknown for over a century and previously known through an etching reproduced in 1895."

One of the friends was an officer of the Regiment of Chasseurs a Cheval of the French Imperial Guard and the other friend… What unit did he serve in? Can anyone tell me something about his uniform and unit?

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NAPOLEON EN CAMPAGNE (painted by Detaille in 1895)

Enjoy the paintings, my friends.

Two marvelous paintings!

Might the officer on the painting above, with bicorn fore-and-aft, be of the Guard Horse Artillery? The Imperial eagle on the shabraque would suggest Guard. He is "en surtout," long-tailed cutaway coat instead of the hussar rig – a variation also worn at time by the Chasseurs a cheval of the Guard. The aiguelette on the right shoulder would also suggest Guard. That dark blue and pointed shabraque would suggest the horse artillery.

The two dragoons from the 23rd are a puzzle! Should have jonquille (light yellow) lapels and cuffs. Collar is correct in dark green. The lapels and cuffs shown are almost white. Might the paint have faded over time?

Why are they with a Guard unit, or with the Guard horse artillery officer?

GdeP

He could be. He could also be a staff officer, or an officer detailed to the staff, which would or could be the reason for the two dragoon escort.

The bicorne in the field would denote an officer detailed to the staff away from his regiment, or a staff officer. He's not an ADC as he does not have the ADC brassard on his arm.

I don't see the links…..

Right-click on the images and copy image address.

For those in or visiting NYC, the Metropolitan Museum has Messonier's "Apogee" (Friedland) on the second floor, in European paintings. Not to mention the fabulous armor collection on the ground floor…

I have a large print of "Les Deux Amis" hanging on a wall here – great picture!

The officer on the left would appear to be a staff officer. Note his sword, an exact match to that featured in Lot 368 of Thierry de Maigret's Nov. 18, 2009 auction, listed as a "Très beau sabre d'officer d'état-major". Meissonier more than likely painted it based on an actual exemplar.

His shabraque and portmanteau are also pretty clearly green; this may not show up clearly on the small version above, but it's more obvious in my large print. Note the contrast between them and the blue habit.

This all makes me think the gentleman is a former officer of the Chasseurs à Cheval de la Garde Impériale, promoted to the Imperial HQ. He's exchanged his sabre, but still has the horse furniture of the Chasseurs. Garde de Paris pointed out the wearing of the aiguillette on the right shoulder, and his horse is almost identical to that of the Chasseurs à Cheval colonel on the right, who is exchanging pleasantries with a former officer of his regiment.

Again… These are very large images. They are not small. Please, follow vtsaogames' tip:

Right-click on the images and copy image address.

"The officer on the left would appear to be a staff officer. Note his sword, an exact match to that featured in Lot 368 of Thierry de Maigret's Nov. 18, 2009 auction, listed as a "Très beau sabre d'officer d'état-major". Meissonier more than likely painted it based on an actual exemplar."

a capitaine of the

Garde Impériale Etat Major Général Officier Adjoint 1809 – 1815 would fit well, the saddle cloth appears well to be blue on my screen, see also Rigo plate Nr. 118

Here are the links (from Sothebys).

Meissonier's painting: link

Detaille's painting: link

Many thanks for all the feedback. I'm learning a lot.

Great paintings. Thanks for posting them!

Pete

For those in or visiting NYC, the Metropolitan Museum has Messonier's "Apogee" (Friedland) on the second floor, in European paintings.

It does indeed…!

the saddle cloth appears well to be blue on my screen

Don't want to turn this into a "blue dress/white dress" thing, but I would suggest that the portmanteau and the shabraque cloth are the same color, and that the portmanteau directly overlaps the habit and they aren't the same color.

Regardless, the real takeaway here is, whoever wrote that auction blurb didn't know much about the picture and Sothebys should have reached out to wargamers

De Montebello's (previous director) audio description identifies the Chasseurs a Cheval guarding Napoleon in the apogee as Hussars ready to lead the cuirrassiers into battle. They should have checked with war gamers.

The portmanteau is two colours. Up as far as the centre strap it has a green tint but blown up the remainder is blue, as is the shabraque.

If you look at the officers shoulders below his collar you can see the same green tint has been used in the shading.

Again, if some see everything blue, more power to them. I don't.

Or even better here. Looks like two colors to me:

Artistic style allows different highlights for different effects. If you want to highlight blue, strictly you should not add white for a paler blue. You should add grey to take out the blue and fade it. This artist has instead used an earthen highlight, but not just on the blue, see the bicorne on the same officer. Blue and dark earth type shading looks green from a distance…it is not meant to be.

Watch The Matrix or Saving P R and see what green tint does for effect.

One of my favourite examples is the cover of the Victrix Grenadiers of La Garde. I use this as inspiration for highlighting effects……

I love the trumpeter's "white" colpack….that looks far better than anything I have done. Far from white……

Cuirassier: Great stuff, thanks for posting this. John Miller

Wow! Apogee is still there!?!? It was there in '81 when I first went there! What an impressive painting!

I try to make an annual pilgrimage to the Met over the holidays; it was there last December.

Tactical Bacon

Again, if some see everything blue, more power to them. I don't.

I do! (The same as I also see the Chasseurs of the Guard in green!) I also see he has red cuffs, turnbacks and piping with imperial eagle turnback badges and an imperial eagle shabraque badge. So his uniform is that of a Horse Artillery of the Guard officer apart those badges I pointed out above, which would be grenades for the turnbacks and cross cannon barrels below the Imperial eagle shabraque badge. So I agree with GdP

I also agree with Brechtel's comments:

He could be. He could also be a staff officer, or an officer detailed to the staff, which would or could be the reason for the two dragoon escort.

The bicorne in the field would denote an officer detailed to the staff away from his regiment, or a staff officer. He's not an ADC as he does not have the ADC brassard on his arm.

Paul :)

Someone ought to show the Meissonier to our modelers of Napoleonic horse figures. Too many of the horses today look like 'Bullseye' from Toy Story, don't you think?

I cannot agree with officer of artillerie à chaval – an Adjoint fits perfeclty in my view.

Of course he is not an ADC – did I claim that he is one?

In case I find time – I will do a photo of the Rigo plate or look at Armchair General forum, were a lot of such plates are already available as scans

This was discussed in French on this forum below

link

and indeed the early suggestion them was he might be artillery. However the conclusion was indeed Adjutant (or Adjoint en Francais) of the Guard and they reproduced this image.

The same artist painted him "En reconnaissance" in exactly the same rig……red turnbacks and cuffs (which do seem to have been correct for early Empire…..)

Perrys seem to have produced something very similar to the latter;

Funny things have happened to the colours in places. The plumes of most of the troopers of C a Chev look like red over blue, not green. Meissonier was not the sort to get that wrong!

@deadhead

Many thanks, the Perrys are Adjutant commandants of the line and are a bit different to an adjoint seemingly i must make a photo of the Rigo plate

Yes there is also an Adjoint – by the Perrys, I see now, but also of the line

True, they do not have the aigulette of the Guard, but I would bet the paintings inspired them!

Adjutant makes more sense. His friend is clearly on the Staff to judge by white plume

Kevin: I couldnt agree more!!
Horses are gracious and beautifull animals.
Some prominent sculptors do a fantastic job mind you, but to many (and surprisingly new makes!) are not very good, some even down right terrible and horses end up looking more like big dogs than horses. I am guessing it is probably hard to sculpt horses well and only very few sculptors master it since there are so few really good horse sculpts.
Thinner necks and faces and longer and thinner legs would seem to be good a start I would think..

My only worry then would be how thin and brittle the legs of the horses would become if they were sculpted anatomically true in the smaller scales..

that being said, IMHO Anthony Bartons 15/18mm Horses are probably the best out there!

Nice find BTW Deadhead!!:)

While this is an imaginary picture, if circa 1809 and judging by the amount of "gilt" on the sleeves and what not, it would not be impossible to think of Pierre Daumesnil as the Officer of the Chasseurs a Cheval being the representative figure.

and indeed the early suggestion them was he might be artillery. However the conclusion was indeed Adjutant (or Adjoint en Francais) of the Guard and they reproduced this image.

Problem is that there is no discernible braid to the collar and the cuff is red not blue piped red and has no plume.

I reckon that the painting depicts a meeting between the Guard Horse artillery officer and the Guard Chasseurs commander to discuss the support to be given in their advance. Perhaps the low handshake could also mean a meeting between two Masons?

Paul :)

The red cuff is a problem but several sources show it, early Empire. What convinces me is that the same figure, by the same artist, is shown again in what really does not seem an artillery role…Horse especially.

The Masonic idea is interesting, but I doubt we will learn much more about that here. Not something generally shared in a public forum. Great advantage for me of being an Irish left footer (RC)…never invited………I've altered the next bit within the 60 minutes deadline…I'll leave it at that.

Can I ask what the horse has to do with it? And why no double braiding to the collar?

Paul :)

good arguments dibble, still I am not convinced, no red piping around the collar ( a variation or the artist was not that informed about this specific dress??) – also the sabre is not that fitting.

Seemingly the second dress of an artillery officers of the Guard could vary – like all blue on a portrait in 1814 checking text as in Fallou provide even more confusion.

Thanks for all the info, guys. Special kudos to deadhead. ;-)

I found this post through searching for adjutant-commnadants.

von Winterfeldt is correct with his first post, though why so much round the bushes is beyond me. The primary figure is an ADC or Adjoint from either the Etat-Major General or the Etat-Major de la Garde (Commandant General) and the dress is perfectly good.

Full dress uniform may have been red collars and cuffs, but all non Etat-Major/ Garde adjoints were to wear wholly blue, with laced collar, as distinctions.

That this man wears an aiguillette doesn't define his 'corps' but his role is absolute. And yes, line corps were frequently used as 'Officers d'ordinance' in support and security of the Etat-major Generale and personnel. (Frequently read of are the 22e Chasseurs).

However to further comment that "or the artist was not that informed about this specific dress??" is an absolute slur on Meisonnier and Detaille, both of who used extant uniforms, validated and borrowed from the Ministry for War (not museums) and had models and actual troops perform and wear the uniforms in order to correctly depict them (at often near 1:1 scale).

For my use, the paintings allow one to gauge how to paint effects onto my models, to enhance the features and differences usually visible to the human eye.
regards davew