McLaddie | 05 Sep 2016 4:42 p.m. PST |
I just saw a promotional blurb for a new set of what are called 'Old School' rules. None of the descriptors were what I thought of as particularly or uniquely 'old school' such as squares for movement or 'universal rules.' Having played miniature wargames since Charles Grant came out with his first games as well as Featherstone and Scruby, I find I am unsure. So, what is it about a set of rules that make it 'old school?' |
Winston Smith | 05 Sep 2016 4:59 p.m. PST |
That totally depends on when and how you broke into The Hobby. When I broke in in the mid 70s, the rage was all charts with multiple plus and minus charts. How did I survive WRG Ancients? And my first AWI Rulez that I used was 1776, which you may as well call "WRG with muskets and D100." So my idea of Old School may differ widely from yours. Featherstone? I regret to say that I have never played a Featherstone, or a Scruby set of rules. I hear that Warhammer and Flames of War are Featherstone inspired, but have no knowledge to base it on. Why don't we just define Old School as "Having fun instead of taking a graduate degree"? Heck. Guys whose first exposure was to Empire may consider that Old School. Ditto Harpoon. Sadly, the term is un-definable. Or not so sadly. It leads to arguments in bars, snd that's a good thing. |
Jamesonsafari | 05 Sep 2016 5:21 p.m. PST |
I don't know if I'm Old School or New… Either way I'm in Detention! |
PapaSync | 05 Sep 2016 5:52 p.m. PST |
How about anything prior to 1990 (Golden age). 19990 to 2005 (Silver age). 2005-present new age. 8) |
Mako11 | 05 Sep 2016 5:58 p.m. PST |
40+ – 50+ year old gamers, I suspect. |
79thPA | 05 Sep 2016 6:41 p.m. PST |
Short and simple rules (no attempt made to come up with a rule for every eventuality), a short list of die roll modifiers, use of a D6, simple terrain, individually mounted figures coupled with removal of individual casualty figures which are, of course, based on a garishly green stand of some kind. |
Lucius | 05 Sep 2016 6:46 p.m. PST |
I'm not sure about rules, but glossy Testors enamel paint has got to be involved, somehow. |
Extrabio1947 | 05 Sep 2016 6:47 p.m. PST |
Simple rules, rudimentary terrain, and lots of glossy miniatures. The book that finally let me know there was something else I could do with all those Airfix miniatures besides shooting them with rubber bands was "Charge, Or How to Play Wargames." It is still my favorite book on the hobby. |
Bashytubits | 05 Sep 2016 6:56 p.m. PST |
When the schoolhouse you game in is over 100 years old!
|
miniMo | 05 Sep 2016 6:57 p.m. PST |
For me it conjures flashbaks to the horrors of 70's (and even later for WRG) game design where complexity, stacks of charts, and endless modifiers somehow equated with more 'realism'. *shudder* |
79thPA | 05 Sep 2016 7:01 p.m. PST |
I would argue that those games (such as Empire) are the antithesis of and designed in reaction to the simplicity and perceived lack of realism in Old School rule design. |
Winston Smith | 05 Sep 2016 7:14 p.m. PST |
Old School will always be defined by the person who is speaking. He is right, and everybody else is wrong. It is in the eye of the beholder. You can't define it. You can try, but it's a fool's errand. |
Mars Miniatures | 05 Sep 2016 7:33 p.m. PST |
Can we all agree that H.G. Wells Little Wars is not just old school but… Olde School. |
Wargamer Blue | 05 Sep 2016 8:36 p.m. PST |
Rules that make elderly gamers feel good. |
miniMo | 05 Sep 2016 9:06 p.m. PST |
@79thPA, I'm curious, where there any simple WW2 rules? When I discovered Wargamers Digest and got excited about WW2 gaming with HO tanks in the late 70's, the only rules available that I could find were Angriff, Tractics, and WRG. |
normsmith | 05 Sep 2016 9:49 p.m. PST |
I see old school as being 25mm – 30mm metal figures, block painted, possibly glossed, mounted on plain card bases painted green, played over a large board painted green and no texture, with hills that are single level (plateau) with flat sides. I think it is the look rather than the rules that are old school, it just so happens that rules are form the featherstone and grant school, were the influencing rules at the time that all these other old school indicators prevailed. |
GarrisonMiniatures | 05 Sep 2016 10:49 p.m. PST |
Pretty much agree with normsmith. It's a state of mind. For me, it would be about pre-1976 or so – before then (very generally) armies were mass painted, skirmish figures cost more and were painted better, after that mass armies started to get smaller and painted better – or, at least, shaded. |
Martin Rapier | 05 Sep 2016 11:18 p.m. PST |
What normsmith said. The look and feel of Grant/Featherstone, and usually something pretty simple involving D6 and odd contraptions like cannister templates made from wire. There is no way that mid 1970s chart heavy rules could be considered Old School. |
Glengarry5 | 06 Sep 2016 12:02 a.m. PST |
For me it's early Minifigs and Airfix soft plastics painted in gloss enamel, rules mimeographed (in 6 pages or less, including colour guides)on a flat Ping-Pong table and nothing to roll but 6 sided dice! |
MHoxie | 06 Sep 2016 1:43 a.m. PST |
Range estimation of 1:1250 scale battleships so as to straddle them with upside-down white golf tees. |
Lucius | 06 Sep 2016 2:29 a.m. PST |
Old School gaming back in the day, does mean the games you grew up on. So no, we'll never agree on what it is. Old School gaming NOW, though, is what I call neo-stalgia. Miniatures gaming not like it was back in the day, but as it SHOULD have been. It is like going to a Renaissance Fair and seeing clean people walking around with nice costumes, eating turkey legs, instead of seeing starving, filthy people dressed in rags and having the Plague. Not the way it was, but the way it should have been. It is a lot more enjoyable that way. FWIW, I like both Renaissance Fairs and Old School Gaming. |
robert piepenbrink | 06 Sep 2016 2:32 a.m. PST |
I think there's a valid distinction between "Old School" and "what I played in my youth." blurring the two just makes language less useful. Yes that puts me on the "largish castings, individually mounted and played with simple rules" side of the argument. I'm not sure the aesthetics are necessarily linked. |
Chokidar | 06 Sep 2016 2:37 a.m. PST |
Interesting to note that despite multiple mentions of Grant and Featherstone but nary a glimpse (unless I really skimmed too quickly) of "Bear" – to me the quintesscential Old School as his personality and character transcended any hobby into an expression of attitudes. It is also interesting that within that coterie "The Wargame" set next to "Charge" already starts to feel technical… An interesting thread redolent of musings and memories… |
evilgong | 06 Sep 2016 3:16 a.m. PST |
A game with a cloth draped over books to create hills must be in the range. Db |
daler240D | 06 Sep 2016 3:41 a.m. PST |
glossy paint, 6 sided dice (but not buckets of them) minimum 20mm figure size but typically 30mm or larger. Terrain maybe a little abstracted, not super realistic or detailed. Played by gentlemen that know each other, certainly NOT a points based convention competition game. Rules written in an avuncular, but not condescending style. |
FusilierDan | 06 Sep 2016 4:47 a.m. PST |
It's what I'm playing now. link |
Doug MSC | 06 Sep 2016 5:45 a.m. PST |
There ya go Fusilier Dan! Simple rules, individually mounted figures from 25,30,40 or 54mm tall, six sided dice and loads of fun, |
rmaker | 06 Sep 2016 8:56 a.m. PST |
I'm curious, where there any simple WW2 rules? Try Morschauser. |
Martin Rapier | 06 Sep 2016 8:56 a.m. PST |
This is Old School Wargaming (Tony Bath pushing his 40mm flats around).
and no, I didn't play that in my youth. Although I did read about it. |
Who asked this joker | 06 Sep 2016 9:17 a.m. PST |
Flats, shiny "rounds", converted Airfix plastic men to me are all old school. Featherstone, Bath, Grant, Wessencraft, Tarr to me are all old school rules authors. As mentioned above, basic terrain, green painted bases and basic block paint jobs to me are all old school. |
Yesthatphil | 06 Sep 2016 10:10 a.m. PST |
The last two posts. Figures: flats, shiny 20/25mm, Airfix conversions … Tables: flat green with contour hills … Rules by: Bath, Featherstone, and for me, Peter Young's Charge! … Dice: D6 Templates … blast circles, artillery bounce sticks etc. etc. I have a great nostalgia for all that. Those rules needed quite a lot of interpretation and arbitrage … not a patch on today's smooth mechanisms but it is hard to remember that (at the time they were state of the art and as all rules were loose like that, it wasn't a problem) Phil |
Rudysnelson | 06 Sep 2016 10:50 a.m. PST |
Some consider the use of matrix charts as old school now but back in the 1970s, it matrix results were regarded as the innovation. Prior to the matrix system, the bucket of dice was the standard for many sets of rules including Tricolor by TSR, CLS, General Quarters and others. So the mechanics for designer's have been around for a long time. The question as to whether a set of rules is popular is based on marketing and acceptance (popularity) rather than design mechanics. |
HangarFlying | 06 Sep 2016 4:14 p.m. PST |
TIL: I do old school gaming. |
McLaddie | 06 Sep 2016 8:31 p.m. PST |
I appreciate all the thoughts on this. Well, good. There isn't any definite agreement on what does and doesn't constitute "Old School." Some of the observations are what I would have thought and some aren't. I game with 54mm plastics with contemporary rules like Volley and Bayonet and Battle Cry/C&C Napoleonics and was told that was 'old school', which is what got me wondering. |
arthur1815 | 07 Sep 2016 2:13 a.m. PST |
McLaddie, perhaps they meant you were using 'old school' style and size figures, rather than commenting on the game rules. I would imagine some people may use modern, highly detailed metal or plastic figures, beautifully painted with landscaped bases with very simple rules that are 'old school'in style, even if they don't date from the 1960s. Not the 'old school' aesthetic, but an 'old school' ethos game. Do we need to distinguish the 'hardware' (figures and terrain) from the 'software' (rules)? |
Martin Rapier | 07 Sep 2016 3:27 a.m. PST |
My 54mm figures are done in shiny plastic toy soldier style. Sometimes I use them with Wellsian Old School type rules, other times with more dour modern sets which bear a bit more relation to reality. They are only pretty 3D counters, but they do look nice. |
McLaddie | 07 Sep 2016 7:56 a.m. PST |
McLaddie, perhaps they meant you were using 'old school' style and size figures, rather than commenting on the game rules. Could be. They didn't explain their reasoning, but it did make me wonder what "Old School" encomposed. If Old School is a rules type, I am not sure what that is. Certainly, HG Wells rules are 'Old School'… the oldest. |
14Bore | 07 Sep 2016 12:31 p.m. PST |
Thats how I roll, nothing I do is different than I did 36 years ago. Mostly because until a few years before I started posting here I didn't know anything better. |
Ivan DBA | 08 Sep 2016 10:42 a.m. PST |
I agree with Joker, Yesthatphil, and Rudy: "Old School" gaming is the style of Grant, Featherstone, Young, Bath, etc. It's a board and contour hills painted uniform light green. Glossy-painted, individually based (or not based) figures, which are often 54mm toys. Usually big regiments. For example, Grant organized his 18th Century imagi-nation armies into 48-figure regiments. |
Ghecko | 08 Sep 2016 4:18 p.m. PST |
Perhaps anything and everything pre-digital age? That would probably be upto c1980. Covers most of what's been talked about here. |
Dexter Ward | 09 Sep 2016 2:47 a.m. PST |
One other thing about many Old School rules (certainly Charles Grant and the Young/Lawford 'Charge' rules) is that they used written orders and simultaneous moves. Not something one sees in rules any more. But otherwise – single based figures in large units. Simple mechanisms. |
Paint it Pink | 09 Sep 2016 4:40 a.m. PST |
I can't speak to the definition of Old School, because it was never clearly defined in the first place, and today we have players who are going back to early editions of Warhammer FB and calling it Old Hammer. However, there were WW2 games prior to WRG that involved a stat line for a tank and one deducted the attack from the defense value to get a number that had to be rolled on 2D6, which I think probably counts as Old School WW2. Sorry I can't remember the name of these rules I played in 1969. I can remember the delight of seeing a shed ton of Airfix 1/72nd models and infantry spread across the floor of a hall that was a dojo, so we walked around bare-footed to play. |
Part time gamer | 10 Sep 2016 1:54 a.m. PST |
Hmm I dont recall ever using WRG rules.. mayhave but didnt pay attention to "who makes'um.. lets just play" was my feeling then. Personally, Im two fold on the question. In part I think back (before my time) when 54's and the larger scales were typical as 'Old School". But I have to agree largely its the rules you grew up with. IMHO the ones that bring back the fun / good memories. BEFORE computer games, before (perhaps) we 'learned too much' and they tried to become 'too acurate/realistic' i.e. kind of lost some of the simple fun. side note; Even thought i have never read them, Im still considering gettting a copy of "Little Wars" simply because H. G. Wells was the author. And I'd love to read over them. |
Ottoathome | 10 Sep 2016 4:45 a.m. PST |
Old school is heavy on entertainment and short on ego. It's an emphasis on fun and an easy going attitude rather than trying to prove you're a new Napoleon. |
Peter Constantine | 11 Sep 2016 12:50 p.m. PST |
I'm curious, where there any simple WW2 rules? I'd suggest 'Operation Warboard' by Gavin Lyall or 'Battle' by Charles Grant. |
Weasel | 18 Sep 2016 12:36 p.m. PST |
The average age of TMP posters, minus 30 years or so. So about 1740's or so :-) Joking aside, Old school must depend on the person and genre.
Old school scifi is Traveller, Rogue Trader and Laserburn. Old school fantasy is Chain mail and original Warhammer. Old school roleplaying is pre-AD&D 2nd edition, Runequest and Rolemaster. Once you start trying to narrow down criteria, you run into strange situations.
|
UshCha | 22 Oct 2016 8:09 a.m. PST |
Regarding terrain. Hex terrain is old school. His book advanced wargames showed her terrain by a Spanish guy. About 20 years ago I made a copy just like the original pictures. However I abandoned it in favor of light weight plastic Kalistra stuff. Have I left old school if I improve stuff? My 1/72 scale buildings are based on the Lionel Tarr Stalingrad pictures in Featherstones Wargames but now on pdf for printing on card. Home printers not really around at that time. Is it still old school? |
Asterix | 09 Nov 2016 4:31 p.m. PST |
So many correct answers here. (Did anybody mention sand tables?) |
Blutarski | 24 Nov 2016 8:24 a.m. PST |
No discussion of "old school" war-gaming can be complete without a nod to the late great Fred Vietmeyer and his CLS Napoleonic rules. Not all old school rules fit on one side of a 3x5 card. CLS "basic" rules ran to +/- 100 pages and the "preferred referee rulings" eventually grew to fill a four-inch thick loose-leaf binder. Nevertheless, it was/is a great game, 90 pct of which can be played without opening the rule book – something I still consider a hallmark of competently designed game mechanics. B |