"Composition of Spanish Nationalist Army" Topic
14 Posts
All members in good standing are free to post here. Opinions expressed here are solely those of the posters, and have not been cleared with nor are they endorsed by The Miniatures Page.
For more information, see the TMP FAQ.
Back to the Interwar (WWI to WWII) Message Board
Areas of InterestWorld War One World War Two on the Land
Featured Hobby News Article
Featured Link
Top-Rated Ruleset
Featured Showcase ArticleThinking to invade German-held Europe? Then you'll need some of these...
Featured Workbench ArticleMal Wright experiments to find a better way to mount aircraft for wargaming.
Featured Profile Article
Featured Book Review
|
Please sign in to your membership account, or, if you are not yet a member, please sign up for your free membership account.
GNREP8 | 28 Aug 2016 7:24 p.m. PST |
I read the attached from someone in Spain on a recent comment column in the press to the effect of there were not many Francoists in Spain as 'The francoist military was made mostly of Moroccoans (sic), Italians and Germans.' From my calculations, unless the Army of Africa had expanded hugely by 1938/39, then thats wishful thinking by someone on the left from his other comments (but who said he came from a fascist leaning military family) trying to whitewash history and blame it all on nasty foreigners (which is actually almost racist in itself) Any Spanish TMPers or otherwise experts can comment? |
peterx | 28 Aug 2016 9:22 p.m. PST |
Hi Stuart, From my readings about the Spanish Civil War, the Army of Africa (of Spanish Morocco) were the best trained, and best lead Spanish troops of the Nationalist (Francoist) Army. They had fought the Rif Colonial War in Morocco earlier, so the soldiers, NCOs, and officers had actual combat experience on the battlefield. The other troops and officers of the regular Spanish Army who sided with Franco (or the Republican government) were not as experienced, or well trained. In addition, the Nazi Condor Legion flew the entire Army of Africa (Spanish) to the Spain to help Franco and the Nationalist generals. The Condor Legion also brought German tanks, mechanics and tankers to drive their AFVs in battle. The Germans trained the Spanish tankers in tactics and tank warfare.In the air war, the Condor Legion pilots were some of the best in Spain, flying in advanced Messerschmitts (for the time) and using advanced tactics. They essentially trained all the best Spanish pilots. They also coordinated bomber attacks with ground attacks. The Germans developed the way to terrorize the civilian population with bomber attacks against cities and towns. The Nazi approach to total war theory was developed and put into practice by the German command in Spain. Mussolini's Italian troops who were also sent to Spain to support Franco with: tanks, machine guns, field guns, planes, supplies and infantry that the Francoist generals needed to attack the Republican Army. Franco's rebellion would have either failed, or taken much longer without the Army of Africa's Spanish Moroccan troops and officers,as well as the Nazi and the Italian Fascist support. Franco might have won, but I really doubt it. The Spanish Falangist troops, the Carlists, and the other Spanish regular troops were not of the same quality as those mentioned before. Although as those Spanish mainland regular troops fought the Republicans, they improved and learned as the brutal war dragged on. |
Quiles | 29 Aug 2016 2:58 a.m. PST |
Hello, just a note, the best elements of the army were held with the Republic. All aviation and pilots remained with the republic. Almost the entire navy remained with the republic. The money remained with the republic. The first side to use terror bombing against civilians was Republican , and he never stopped doing throughout the war, and a long etc.. The "Nationalist" side had to learn from 0 . |
Vigilant | 29 Aug 2016 3:18 a.m. PST |
There is also the heavy materiel support from the Soviet Union in tanks which were significantly better than anything supplied by the Germans or Italians, aircraft modern fighters and bombers which were comparable to those supplied by Germany and Italy until late in the war. Both sides relied heavily on support from overseas, but the Republicans had more foreign manpower in the International Brigades than the Nationalists did – Franco tried to limit foreign support to equipment and advisers rather than manpower. |
ITALWARS | 29 Aug 2016 3:41 a.m. PST |
the Italian contribution to the Nationalist victory is grossly over estimated above all in therms of efficiency of troops ….also Franco HQ did'nt want at all direct involvment of Italian troops in Spain….as it's clearly documented in a reliable source as the books by Prof. J.F. Coverdale… to interesting post by Quiles i must add that…contrary to romantic tales about Republican side of which we are overwelmed…the Red side actions, not only with their air bombing activity, were sinonimous of terror against civilian population..probably the balance shifted toward Nationalist troops because they gained support from liberated people and because the theorically stronger Republican Army…also if well supplied and supported from abroad..had the cancer of incompetent political leadership (political commissars among international brigades ecc..) who ruled the few professional military leaders… |
Bob the Temple Builder | 29 Aug 2016 4:50 a.m. PST |
There is no simple answer to your question, but this might be of help: At the beginning of the war the main Nationalist strength came from the Army of Africa (Legion Extrangero and Moroccan Tabores), a few Regular Army units, the Carlist Militia, the Falangist Militia, the majority of the Guardia Civil, a few urban riot police (Asaltos) and border troops (Carabineros). The Republic's main strength came from a few Regular Army units, political/trade union Militias, a few Guardia Civil, the majority of the Asaltos and Carabineros. As the was progressed the Nationalists expanded the Army of Africa with new recruits and built upon what Regular Army units they had (with conscripts and some volunteers). The Carlists also remained in a frontline role, whereas the Falangists took on a security and policing role along with the Guardia Civil. The Italians were treated as a bit of a joke by both the Nationalists and the Republicans whereas the German contribution was much more valued. The Republic tried to set up a new Popular Army by militarising the various militias, with varying degrees of success. Within the new army, the International Brigades took on the equivalent role to the Nationalist Legion Extrangero. By the end of the war both sides were relying on conscription to maximise the number of frontline troops they were able to field. The contribution of the Germans, Italians, and Russians can be overstated by some sources. They did provide expertise and modern armaments … but at a price. (The Republic had to hand over their gold reserves to Russia to pay for the weapons they were sent, and the Germans gained a monopoly on important raw materials in exchange for their aid.) Certain American companies also supplied important resources to the Nationalists (e.g. Standard Oil supplied petrol and Ford sold them trucks). PS. For more information, try to get hold of a copy of LA ULTIMATE CRUZADA. I wrote it back in the 1990s and it covers a lot of useful information for wargamers. |
basileus66 | 29 Aug 2016 6:46 a.m. PST |
I read the attached from someone in Spain on a recent comment column in the press to the effect of there were not many Francoists in Spain as… "In the press" is the relevant sentence. You can't trust the accuracy of reporting. Not nowadays. SCW, as all Civil Wars, has its share of myth-making creation. How it is perceived at the present is a by-product of decades of propaganda, by both sides. It started in 1936, when the first units rebelled against the legitimate government. It hasn't stop yet. As for the question. In 1938, the Rebels counted in its ranks with around 900,000 to 1,000,000 men, between front line soldiers and auxiliary services. Italians were, approximately, 35,000 men (50,000 passed through the ranks of the CTV, with 3,500 killed and 11,500 wounded). The Army of Africa, which at the start of the war counted with 36,000 troops, had swelled its ranks to 60,000 men (now called Cuerpo de Ejército Marroquí, or Moroccan Army Corps), under Yagüe. It is a bit misleading, though, as most of the long-career professionals that formed the Army of Africa in 1936 had became casualties in the battles for Madrid, in november 1936-february 1937. The Condor Legion never rose above the 5,000 troops. In other words, a bit shy of 100,000 men, i.e. about 10% of the whole Rebel forces were foreigners, with the caveat that the Moroccan Army Corps included many Spaniards, mostly in the Legion and as heavy weapons crews and in the supporting artillery batteries. The rest were, mostly, conscripted soldiers, a few thousand volunteers -Carlists and Falangists, mostly, although integrated into the ranks of the regular army by 1938- and many Republican deserters and POWs that found more appealing to serve in the ranks of their former enemies than to spend the rest of the war in a POW Camp -which, in some cases, was almost as bad as a death sentence, due the harsh life conditions-. Hope this helps |
basileus66 | 29 Aug 2016 6:49 a.m. PST |
Almost forgot: the Navy was completely Spanish -although German and Italian submarines operated against Republican maritime traffic, but following their own agenda-. It was in the Air Force were the presence of Italians and Germans had a major impact. |
Gaz0045 | 29 Aug 2016 7:44 a.m. PST |
It was the arms embargo by the League of Nations (France and Britain) that lost the Republicans their war, Stalin ensured all the Soviet aid was paid for, whilst Franco bought lots of trucks and fuel from the US on promissory notes and the Germans and Italians ignored the embargo completely. The scars of the Civil War run deep and are not healed over yet in Spain……there is a tale locally of 2 brothers who 'hid out' in the mountains until the 1950's to avoid both the Republican and Nationalist drafts. |
peterx | 29 Aug 2016 7:17 p.m. PST |
Ok, I looked in Beevor's book,"The Battle for Spain" for actual numbers in the two armies and numbers of foreign fighters in the Spanish Civil War. It was a very fluid situation, but here are numbers in 1936 at the start of the Francoist rebellion:130,000 soldiers on the Nationalist side and 90,000 soldiers on the Republican side. The Francoist forces included: 40,000 in the Army of Africa, 50,000 in the mainland army, 10,000 officers, and 30,000 paramilitary forces(Civil Guard, Assault Guards, and Carabineros). On the Republican side there : 50,000 soldiers from the mainland army, 7,000 officers, and 33,000 paramilitary forces. The Spanish Air Force did side mostly with the Republic, but with outdated planes. The Navy split and two major battleships went with the Francoists. In addition, the Nationalists controlled some submarines and destroyers. Foreign volunteers for the Republic numbered 32,000-35,000 total over 1936-1939, with 20,000 at most in any one time. There were about 2,000-3,000 Soviet soldiers and technical personnel sent with about 500 at any one time in Spain. This contrasts with the foreign fighters for the Francoists. The Italian Fascist government alone sent 80,000 soldiers and techs over the course of the war. The German Nazi government sent 16,000 personnel to Spain during the war. That is a total of 96,000 foreign fighters and personnel on the Francoist side versus 38,000 foreign soldiers and personnel on the Republic's side. I did not count the Army of Africa in this "foreign fighter count", although the Moroccans in the Spanish Army of Africa were a big number at: 40,000 soldiers. I did see that at the end of the war in 1939 that Franco reported his own army to be about a million fighters. It also doesn't say whether the Italian army, navy and air force or the German army, navy and air forces are included. The support personnel that are included in Franco's number inflate that amount too. So that number is not as helpful as it could be- in this discussion. The foreign fighters in Franco's army, navy and air force were a huge percent of his total numbers during the early war. In addition, if you include the Army of Africa, the numbers are even more imbalanced toward foreign fighters in Spain fighting for the rebel generals. |
peterx | 29 Aug 2016 7:34 p.m. PST |
As Gaz mentioned, one could also include the British Royal Navy's blockade of Republican ports to prevent war material to get to Republican Spanish ports as foreign support. The Royal Navy did sink Republican ships during the war. However, that blockade did not effect the Francoist side. The rebel generals had a strong ally in Portugal. So all shipping from Italy and Germany could enter Portugal's ports and be trucked to Spanish Francoist forces. When the rebel Francoist forces took over ports in Spain, it seems the Royal Navy did nothing to stop arms from reaching Franco and his forces. The British and French did try to stop arms from entering the conflict, but only arms going to the Republic. In addition, US oil companies and auto companies also sent up very favorable loans for Franco to get oil and vehicles from the USA. So, that was not helpful to the survival of the Republican government either. |
basileus66 | 29 Aug 2016 11:21 p.m. PST |
Beevor's book is not the best for numbers. Actually, it could be argued it is one of the worst in that regard. |
grtbrt | 06 Sep 2016 8:23 a.m. PST |
basileus If you make a blanket statement like that -you should show evidence and citations -otherwise it is merely you saying that because it disagrees with your views. |
Aristonicus | 11 Sep 2016 7:47 a.m. PST |
Re: the number of Moroccans who served in the Army of Africa, the figure the Moroccans talking about today is 136,000. I cannot say if this number is exaggerated or not but that is what they are claiming.
Local governments are having to help activists exhume some of the thousands of civil war mass graves still lying unmarked across the country.Among them, forgotten by European history, are tens of thousands of Moroccan fighters, their burials unrecorded and their fate unacknowledged. About 136,000 fought for the Generalissimo's "Army of Africa," the feared vanguard of a force that, ironically, Franco portrayed as a Christian crusade against godless communists. linkOf these 75,000 (10% of the population) were from Spanish Morocco, 9,000 from the Ifni, 1,000 were non-Moroccans and the rest were from French Moroccan territory link |
|