"How Long before a Second Edition?" Topic

There seem to be quite a few second editions of rule sets at the moment, but how long after a first edition is it reasonable to expect to see a second edition?

As soon as the manufacturers think the chumps will line up to buy the same old thing again.

I prefer they get it right the first time.

Once there is sufficient groundswell of feedback from players that justifies change…

Hopefully, quite some time, if the writer(s) have done their work well, and not given us a poorly written, hastily published set that needs updating before it's even sold.

I'm with 79thPA on the issue.

2 years, 8 months, 2 weeks, 4 days, 17 hours and 23 minutes.

When the first print run of "the most heavily play tested set of rules in wargaming history" runs out, and enough amendments and changes have been released to make the owners of the first edition have to pony up for a new more expensive second edition.

+1 79th PA

I'm with Otto and Winston. Figure five years to have all the loopholes are known to the hardcore players and ten years before everyone knows them. Or maybe it just takes 5-10 years to sell out the first printing. But 5-10 years is when you can expect the next edition.

Here's a thought: Every time you actually finish a game of a slick, expensive rules set, put a dollar in a jar. If, when the next edition comes out, you don't have enough money in the jar to pay for the rules, don't buy them.

The saved money might go to my proposed fund for putting out a contract on every rules writer who introduces a new basing system. We can start with the ones who change basing between editions.

About three months after I break down and buy the current edition.

Grelber

I remember DBM 1.0 – my first WRG purchase. There was a tremendous buzz about it on the old Electronic Hoplite, in the pre Web Internet days.

Within one month there was official errata on ONE THIRD of the pages. That's not a typo – one out of three pages had a change within one month. It was effectively a new edition.

And somehow, everyone on the list-serve seemed to think that this was perfectly normal. It astonished me that anyone would tolerate that level of quality control. And yet they did.

So the answer to the question is that the time will vary, depending on the author and the audience.

With WRG, it has nothing to do with "quality control".
It has everything to so with some twit whining that his Late Early Maurikian Byzantines were not winning as many games as they should.
It was that way before DBA was a twinkle in its author's eye.

In this case, it was BEFORE the first army lists came out.

It was crappy quality, plain and simple. And nobody cared. That was the point. Some pools of customers will tolerate it, and some won't.

Ten years – although I love Roberts idea.

2nd edition bolt-action is coming out I have to say I'm quite excited. They listen to the community and implemented many of the common sense and game balance changes we desired. If they are willing to write those into the rules and test them then I will buy another book from them.

I don't know how long it's been since first edition was published, but the timing is right if not a bit overdue.

At each re-printing I think the company has a responsibility to at least put the known errata into the new print run.

The term edition should perhaps be reserved for a reprint in which a mechanic is actually changed, introduced or removed, I.e. There is a fundamental change to the system. On thee occasions, the sale price should be off-set to owners of the previous edition perhaps on surrender of that copy or other proof of original purchase.

When the firs edition has run out and there is a significative demand from the potential customer base that would justify the risk of investment in a new edition.

"2nd edition" in many cases is only a marketing label, not a content label.

I've bought rulesets I definitely wanted to play, for which a 2nd edition was published even before I managed to play a first game under the 1st edition rules.

And unless you play in tournaments or spend all your time on pick-up games with complete strangers (does anyone actually do that?), it doesn't matter at all what edition you play. Editions in wargaming rules are overrated. They are only there to satisfy the followers of the cult of the new, not to improve actual gameplay.

Peter Pig produces second editions after about 10 years of the first /previous edition.

eg PBI was released in 2006 and then again in 2015. Hammerin Iron 1992 and 2012.
Of course PP rules sell at a much slower rate than the most popular sets.
Of course the problem is that you might buy rules at the end of their life, just before a new edition. That would be upsetting.
It happened to us when we stocked the first DBM editions(many years ago). We bought 30 copies and the new edition came out one month later(unbeknownst to us). The publisher(WRG) said"tough luck" when we asked to change them.

martin

This topic produces a lot of grumbling … makes me laugh.

Wargames rules are a book, not a house. If you play the game 3 times you probably have got your money's worth (compared to say, going to the cinema, which is the standard unit of 'worth').

The time considered 'acceptable' to produce a second edition is one where enough games have been played and feedback gathered such that improvements can be made.

There are lots of good reasons for a second edition including adding in any FAQ's or consolidating with supplements.

I'd be far more concerned with buying a set of rules that were just 'bad' from the get-go.

A lot of typo's about nowadays it seems too … although was it the same in the past but it wasn't easy to get the information out to the punters as it is now?

No set of rules survives first contact with the enemy!

Another for 79PA.

That said, I also agree with Ssendam and herkybird – providing the authors' intention is to actually produce a tested, polished, finished product and not an endless string of 'editions' to milk more $$$ out of consumers.

Get your core rules as concise and robust as possible then stop fussing. Release faction books, campaigns, and expansions as needed.

I put out an update based on new mechanics and expressed desires from my customer base through the Forum and Yahoo Group. After 18 years in the business there's been a couple of updates for rules based on significant and multiple changes to the rules, usually three plus.

If someone buys the rules within a year of the update I provide them with a free PDF of the newer version. The nice thing is with the internet there's no excuse not to let people know an update is coming.

Many good points made, but allow me to make one a bit clearer.

NO rule set is ever really "finished."

While no product should be released when the author/publisher knows some portion(s) are not right and ready, there is also no system that cannot improve with ever wider exposure and play by more and more customers.

Inevitably, every rules set will prove to have either something missing/inadequately addressed/needing clarification/capable of expansion/etc sufficient to justify another edition. Obviously, player feedback can be the greatest engine for evolution of a system, and the time that can take, plus the author's willingness to implement the indicated changes or additions, can help determine the timing of any subsequent edition.

Our title, "Boilers And Breechloaders" has been available for some 14 years now, and is currently in its 4th Edition, which is, admittedly, a lot. I take personal responsibility for the NEED of the 2nd because it was early in my career as Editor/Publisher, and it was such a mess of poor proofing and layout that, while popular, the players deserved a cleaner, more accessible version.

The 3rd Edition added new rules for new weapons, and cleared up some uncertainties, while the 4th saw a total revamping of the weapons list to, frankly, match the full range of models available from the Richard Houston Collection of Naval Guns and Fittings we offered. A lot of confusion was ended by calling a spade a spade in the text Also, 24-pdr Hales Rockets were added to the rules, as well as an expanded set of new game counters for mines and torpedoes.

Player generated rules for attacking Forts have been submitted that are clearly superior to those in use from the first, and will likely be added for the next--the 5th!--Edition. However, in all this time, we've been able to hold the price of $25.00 USD, and we anticipate that to continue.

Virtually all of our titles have gone into at least 2nd Editions over the years, and each time it was because there was more and better "game" or information in each. In short, we've never just slapped "New And Improved!" on a cover only to drum up more business--and shame on anyone who has!

Subsequent editions of any rules must have a significant basis for each, and not be just cosmetics or redecorating of the same-mo same-mo.

TVAG

… there is also no system that cannot improve with ever wider exposure and play by more and more customers.

+1.

This question is very "old fashioned".

In an era of PDF's, there's no reason a game cannot be updated on the fly.

Most everything I do gets updates, corrections and even new material over time.
If time comes for a huge overhaul, then that's a 2nd edition.

Sometimes the new edition has been a free update, sometimes its not, it depends on how extensive the changes are.
FiveCore 2nd edition was a new purchase, 3rd edition you just got if you bought the last one.

Of course, for my esteemed comrades that do print, you're confined by that because you won't want 8 different versions of the same rulebook floating around, creating a confusing mess.

So the two are very different beasts, and I think they can (and should) be approached very differently.

Dear Weasel,

"Yes"--and "No."

All the hard copy rules I sell are either printed in small batches, or sold by Amazon as "Print On Demand" projects. This way, I can release a full blown new edition on short notice without having to pray for my mountain of pre-printed copies having to erode enough to get my money back and/or pay for the new printing required.

And, as all printing is done from PDF's, it is "automatic" that when a revised or actual new edition is called for, the PDF's I sell are the up-to-date versions.

For us, they are very much the "same beasts," and should be for any other publisher--or at least one who takes advantage of technology as much as he can.

Cheers!

TVAG

Appreciate your added perspective :-)

"I remember DBM 1.0 – my first WRG purchase. There was a tremendous buzz about it on the old Electronic Hoplite, in the pre Web Internet days.

Within one month there was official errata on ONE THIRD of the pages. That's not a typo – one out of three pages had a change within one month. It was effectively a new edition."

Hmmm… I don't remember this..

DBA 1.0 Published in 1990
DBA 1.1 Published in 1995

I am aware of no errata during this time period.

There was a set if amendments called 1.2 that was made available in 1998.

Further…
Even if some phantom errata sheet did exist that made changes on 1/3 pages… big deal. The rules consisted of page 7, page 8, and page 9. Even one change would have constituted 1/3 of the pages of DBA 1.0 as the rules were only three pages long.

I think it best to take your post as jest.

Joe Collins

If a game is being widely played, a 2nd edition within 1 or 2 years is perfectly well called for. A game will never get close to enough playtesting compared to all the games played after it is in print and available to a wide audience. Once that wide audience has had a year or two to provide feedback and field test, then make the updates!

3rd and subsequent editions, now those should wait a good 5 or more years after each predecessor.

Online forums can help keep an edition current. Snappy Nappy (released 2009) has a Yahoo group where gamers can ask questions and I answer them. At some point a couple years in, I had posted a compiled errata message or two. Recently, one member of the group noted he was combining the message clarifications into one file.

If it was software, there should have been annual upgrades…

Then again, software companies are shifting towards renting the software to users for an annual fee. No pay, no use.

In an era of PDF's, there's no reason a game cannot be updated on the fly.</q.
This is only true if the customer takes the time or is made aware that an update is available online. I have plenty of customers of all ages that do print only, even with the free PDF included.