14th NJ Vol | 19 Aug 2016 7:20 a.m. PST |
Could a unit in line form a closed Column / hasty square if faced by cavalry that was already in charge distance? Would there be enough time to complete the maneuver? Right now the rules I have state the unit must be in field / battle column to form a hasty square. Andy |
Extra Crispy | 19 Aug 2016 7:38 a.m. PST |
What is "charge distance?" How long is a turn? Units in line could about face the rear rank and face enemy cavalry that way… |
14th NJ Vol | 19 Aug 2016 7:44 a.m. PST |
Turns are 5 minutes, ground scale a bit goofy 1 inch = 15 yards. Cavalry normal move about 20 inches. Andy |
marshalGreg | 19 Aug 2016 8:25 a.m. PST |
If you have that much concern perhaps need to play some better written rules. If you are not already in defense for cavalry prior to this turn (with cavarly just under 20 " away) per this scale the unit would be at great risk, especially trying to make any formation change and such to form such defense. But it would be possible- defense could be made by well lead troops well under 2 min. At this distance they should already be there in a defensive formation or plan is on a good volley at close range while in line ( and if fresh should do so with good results- if solid infantry[experienced/trained unit]) History books have shown over and over that good volleys by fresh troops at cavalry at effective range resulted in the cavalry normally being stopped and reason there was wave attacks against such targets in order to hit with the following squadron while they reloaded and hopefully panicked. Suggest try out a game of Carnage n Glory, which is one of the better "tactical simulations" to the period. I guarantee you will use your cavalry differently and more to the period after few goes! Many rules make cavalry much more powerful than what they were, especially by the post 1805 (against non conscript troops) on. But, if you still use them as intended, they can make a bad situation into a disaster/ "I'm crushed" for the opponent. my 2 cents… MG
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McLaddie | 19 Aug 2016 8:51 a.m. PST |
You are talking about a twenty+ year period, so the answer would be different for different nations' armies. On average, a battalion in line could form square or a solid column in @1 minute if they didn't have to worry about coordinating with other battalions and had the room to maneuver. |
Whirlwind | 19 Aug 2016 9:05 a.m. PST |
A confident line would probably just stay in line and repel the cavalry that way. A shaken line or one hit from the flank would probably collapse anyway. The answer given here (from Nafziger?)is c.100 seconds – 4 minutes. link |
forwardmarchstudios | 19 Aug 2016 9:18 a.m. PST |
An interesting question, one that can probably be answered, fortunately. First, you'd have to forget the game term "charge range" and instead find the actual distance from which cavalry would attempt to charge in the period. Bear in mind that heavy cavalry in the Napoleonic era was not primarily intended to fight infantry in square. Ideally they were an arm of rupture or of pursuit, meaning they would come into play (once again, ideally) after the enemy had been pulverized and was wavering. The cav would then be released to annihilate them. They could also act as threats to moving infantry, of course. One thing you see in descriptions of battles in the era was that the presence of calvary represented such a clearly calculated threat to commanders that it dictated their actions in very clear-cut ways. By which I mean, if your rules are very often putting infantry into a position where they are being surprised by enemy cavalry there may be an issue with the rules. Ok- on the specific question. There is a very easy way to answer it with 100% total accuracy that you can take to the bank. 1) To get our terms defined, we will consider that a "hasty square" means a solid body of infantry that is formed by the collapse of a column into one mass of troops. This is opposed to a hollow square, which is formed by (in the later-period French case) 6 companies wheeling into position. By "column" here we mean an infantry battalion moving in a formation either one or two companies in frontage. 2: When an infantry battalion moved in one of these sorts of columns, it was not a solid block of troops like is seen when figure bases are stacked up in most games. Instead, it was mostly open space. Each company in the column would still be only 3 men deep. 3: Figure out the distance between the rows of troops in the columns. From what I've seen this was ideally two companies frontage due to the dictates of drill manuals. So a battalion in column of division should be as deep as the same battalion in line. 4: Using standard marching rates, figure out how much time it would take the companies to cover the appropriate distance in order to close up the column on the front row of troops. 5: Compare that amount of time to the distance cavalry could cover in the same amount of time. If the cavalry are closer than this, on a purely mechanical level then the battalion would NOT have enough time to form a hasty square if the cavalry charge. 6: Define exactly what's meant by "charge" and how cavalry doctrine worked in the period, adjust for local battlefield conditions like fog, smoke, casualties, artillery fire. Personally, I don't think that there were many close-run hasty squares historically as opposed to on the table top. Cavalry often operated in large units, and a full-out tactical surprise would have been a rare thing. |
Glenn Pearce | 19 Aug 2016 1:39 p.m. PST |
Hello Andy! Your problem is your trying to relate real world activities to a game design. You either have to accept the design as it is so you can play the rules, make your own house rules or find a new set of rules. Most game designs like the one you seem to be using try to cram the activities of two opposing sides into timed turns. This simply means you have to accept the compromises that come with those kinds of design. "Could a unit in line form a closed Column / hasty square if faced by cavalry that was already in charge distance? Would there be enough time to complete the maneuver?" In real life probably yes with lots of time left over. In most cases cavalry pretty much telegraphs its intention to charge with bugle calls etc. that probably started even before they move. I think trained infantry could easily form square in about 90 seconds, well trained in 60. I don't know what your charge distance is but it would seem that unless the cavalry is closer than 6" they would have no chance of catching the infantry out of square. "Right now the rules I have state the unit must be in field / battle column to form a hasty square" Well if that's the rule, that's the rule. I think units could form a square (hasty square appears to be a rule qualifier) from line or column pretty much in a similar time frame. Most of the rules that I have played treat "hasty square" as a last minute sort of penalty situation option. Which is hard to swallow when you know that the infantry can form square in a minute, and they would have more than likely had plenty of notice beforehand. Your situation is clearly part of the problem that is inherent in most "Rock, Paper, Scissor" style of games that focus on square vs cavalry as the core or critical part of Napoleonic warfare. Although it certainly was a factor in Napoleonic warfare most RPS style of games seem to have lost sight of the actual dynamics that were in play during the Napoleonic era. I now prefer to only play games where all unit formations are handled at a level below the players. They seem to have a much better sense of play. I hope this has helped you in some way. Best regards, Glenn |
Jcfrog | 21 Aug 2016 1:58 a.m. PST |
Watch the flanks. Resting on terrain or other troops? If yes, they might repulse the attack. If not some cav platoons will work fast there…or as said they might have time to be in square. |
deadhead | 21 Aug 2016 3:19 a.m. PST |
As above. Head on against a line that must form square is totally different to a flank attack. Head on the flank companies are heading away from the advancing cavalry as they wheel into square, behind the facing companies. A steady static unit remains to face the cavalry. A flank attacks means those flank companies must manoeuvre, just as they are being attacked, they must settle into a tight formation and load/fire………. that takes discipline and steady nerve! Surprises did happen. Smoke, high crops, hollows in the ground, misidentification, daft officers etc |
1968billsfan | 21 Aug 2016 4:10 a.m. PST |
"Infantry in line" being attacked by cavalry stands an excellent chance of sending off a cavalry charge which lands on the front of the line. Why not? The cavalry is facing a 3 rank deep line, 160 yards long with the first rank having their musket butts on the ground with the bayonets in the horse's face and the next two ranks presenting bayonets and shooting a timely volley. They outreach the swords and outnumber the cavalryman about 12 to 1. This would be a better situation than being in square, where there is EXACTLY the same 3 rank formation- except that there are corners. The corners of the square are very vulerable because with the right angle corner, only the single file at the corner can present bayonets or fire at someone attacking on the diagonal of the square (or rectangle). If the l"infantry in line" has both flanks covered- perhaps a ravine or a dense woods or a battery or swampy ground or another infantry unit in line, then they are safe and can see the cavalry off. ((That is why infantry can fight in line- if they couldn't hold off cavalry in such a situation, well then….. Infantry would ALWAYS fight in square. Try to remember that the Tercio formation went out of business because of the bayonet flintlock musket. What doesn't work for the "infantry in line" is that cavalry is mobile enough that cavalry can spend some time to move around or to surround an isolated flank and they the equation changes. When attacking the flank, there are 4-5 horsemen attacking a 3 wide end of line and these are easy to kill. Furthermore they can ride around the back and attack the rear- if the infantry does not successfully turn around and set up its bayonet barrier, they also are easy to kill. I always look at cavalry as an opportunistic predator. They will feint attacks and see if the infantry waivers and is vulnerable. They will move around and try to take advantage of missteps or attacking from a weak direction. The rules should reflect that. |
ScottWashburn | 21 Aug 2016 4:34 a.m. PST |
A lot of variable here. One is the size of your battalion. With my reenactment battalion of 200 men I could form a square in a minute or less with no problem. If it were 6-800 men it would be a whole different situation. Much greater distances involved and it will take more time. |
huevans011 | 21 Aug 2016 1:26 p.m. PST |
Realistically you're dead. Your attempt to form square will collapse as your guys panic and fumble and any half decent cavalry will maneuver to hit your flank. Even if they don't, they can probably take your volley and keep coming and your line will flinch and they'll barrel through. Once your formation breaks, they'll ride you down. If you've got good infantry, try refusing your flanks and hope for the best. (God help you!) |
huevans011 | 21 Aug 2016 1:31 p.m. PST |
The only event I can recall off hand is when Curto's legere hit Pakenham's redcoats at Salamanca. Decent cavalry on very bad horses hit very good veteran infantry with lots of support coming up behind them (the Brits). The Brits broke, got ridden down and then rallied on their support and returned to the assault. (Try that with landwehr or Marie-Louises!!) The cavalry withdrew. |
huevans011 | 21 Aug 2016 1:37 p.m. PST |
Again in Real Life terms, how did your infantry end up in the wrong formation with cavalry within charge distance? Usually commanders avoided elementary mistakes like that – unless there was a terrain feature or smoke that hid the cavalry until they were right on you. If there is a wood or sunken road or village within 100 yards, break and get back to it and make a stand there. If there is smoke, hope that the cavalry brigadier doesn't notice you before you can change formation or retire. |
Glenn Pearce | 21 Aug 2016 1:59 p.m. PST |
Hello 1968billsfan! Excellent post as always, my friend, but it got me thinking about a couple of things. "What doesn't work for the "infantry in line" is that cavalry is mobile enough that cavalry can spend some time to move around or to surround an isolated flank and they the equation changes. When attacking the flank, there are 4-5 horsemen attacking a 3 wide end of line and these are easy to kill. Furthermore they can ride around the back and attack the rear- if the infantry does not successfully turn around and set up its bayonet barrier, they also are easy to kill." I've never actually ever read about such a thing happening. Of course I don't rule out that I'm old and may have just forgot. Since the infantry can form square in a pretty short period of time it seems that the time lost by the cavalry trying to move around a flank is a bonus for the infantry. Do you have any juicy quotes that you can send my way? "I always look at cavalry as an opportunistic predator. They will feint attacks and see if the infantry waivers and is vulnerable. They will move around and try to take advantage of missteps or attacking from a weak direction." Similar to the above, outside of perhaps some small skirmish actions I don't recall reading about cavalry making feint attacks to see if the infantry will waiver or are vulnerable. Most cavalry attacks that I recall are sent down the chain of command and the actual unit that performs the attack has no real option other than to attack. Again do you have any good examples that you can quote? Best regards, Glenn |
1968billsfan | 21 Aug 2016 4:22 p.m. PST |
Glenn I understand what you are saying. By the "ride around the infantry" comment, I didn't really mean that if the situation was an isolated infantry battalion against a couple of squadrons of cavalry, that the cavalry could trulely do such- but that in a complex interaction of multiple units (maybe pinning the infantry by an approaching infantry unit or the cavalry coming unexpectedly diverted from a different attack), the cavalry could come from such a direction and wack that infantry from the flank or rear. Just as a wargame player, I have suffered such oh- moments. I disagree about "feint" attacks. Without going to references, please recall all the "cavalry charges" that were usually (80% of the time?) sent off without losses on either side. I understand that cavalry would push on if they saw the infantry ranks start to shake and waiver but if they were steady, they would vere off, with, "well I got better things to do today" I believe that cavalry was often set onto the enemy when things were becoming fluid and the options for who to attack were sent down to the squadron/regiment level. They were attempting to exploit fleeting opportunities and everyone understood that micro-managing by the brigade or higher levels was not the form. |
Glenn Pearce | 21 Aug 2016 4:32 p.m. PST |
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dibble | 21 Aug 2016 5:52 p.m. PST |
The 28th at Alexandria and the 44th at Quatre Bras repelled good quality attacking cavalry whilst in line with the rear rank about facing and sending the cavalry packing. These are but two accounts in 14 years, but I wonder how many other instances this may have happened in other actions, in other armies that went unrecorded. From Minden to Waterloo, there are examples of infantry in line repulsing determined cavalry attacks with a well aimed volley. At Albuera, the driving rain that reduced visibility which in turn negated any firepower retaliation, greatly enhanced the devastating attack by the French/Polish cavalry At Salamanca, it was the Fusilier Brigade who were beaten because they were not at the point of repulse and routing, formed whereas the fresh French infantry brigade opposing them were and who advanced steadily. The 53rd managed to successfully 'though with many casualties, able to fend off repeated French Dragoon attacks whilst retiring, not in square but in line. Paul :) |