"Knights of the Wargaming Table" Topic

Part of the legend of the Great War is that the aviators on each side felt they were sometimes brothers in the air – that the differences which separated men in the trenches were in part healed by the commonality of flight. There was a chivalry that caused the airmen to respect one another.

I wish we had more of that spirit in our hobby today.

I would like to think that when two or more gamers meet at the wargaming table, their differences of status or fortune or belief can be set aside, in the spirit of wargaming.

I am just sick and tired of gamers complaining about other gamers, mocking other gamers, forming little social circles so they can pass judgment on their inferiors, or trying to create division on the basis of political or religious or ethnic or gender or any other artificial basis.

Gamers need to respect one another as human beings, regardless of differences.

Many of you are Christians, and it is said that Christians are supposed to love everyone, including their enemies. Maybe it's too much for all gamers to love all other gamers. But can't we stop despising each other?

Wargaming doesn't care what country you come from, or what time zone you prefer, or the color of your skin, or the size of your wallet.

If another gamer says something which I disagree with, I don't need to chastise him. I don't need to judge him. I certainly don't need to start an argument at the gaming table! I can overlook it. Or maybe I can talk to him some other time. Maybe I misunderstood him. Maybe, if we talk, I can educate him. Or maybe he can educate me.

Let's not be so quick to build walls because we think some people are whatever-ists. Let's certainly not build towers from which we intend to look down on others. Let's recognize that people come in all shapes and flavors, and if they can tolerate us, then maybe we should be a bit more tolerant too.

If you have a difference with someone, be a man and talk to them face-to-face. Don't spread your malice on some internet forum, behind their backs. Mocking others will only canker your own soul.

We have a wonderful opportunity in this hobby to make lifelong friends. Try to be more accepting of someone who is a little different than you are – maybe they are the friend you need. Instead of being a judge, be a helper, a friend, a listener, a companion.

Bill, I was with you on the Taco Bell thing, and I'm with you on this. Amen, brother!

I'm not going to judge a gamer on colour, creed, sexual orientation or politics…
…but if he plays the wrong edition of the rules well he's dead to me.

Someone has obviously pushed their luck a bit too much Bill. War gamers have the same cross section as other groups I suspect? You are working too hard. Take a "time out", have a tactical think and then come back and do what needs to be done with those people (DH or whatever). Also don't forget that they will hold you to a higher standard than they do for themselves.
You do a good job, appreciated by most!

take care

martin

"Also don't forget that they will hold you to a higher standard than they do for themselves."

And that's the real point here. The ability to say 'anything' behind the anonymity of a screen/keyboard unfortunately creates 'Internet Warriors'.

For those so predisposed they can abandon civility and decorum and usually what they say has their own sad baggage behind it.

I agree with MG. Take a break if possible and put it in perspective.

"Internet [snipers]", I fixed it….

Again why do I think of movies,

[Funeral for an enemy pilot]
Willi von Klugermann: Well, aren't you coming? It's an order.
Bruno Stachel: Why?
Willi von Klugermann: Because our commanding officer has made it one. He believes in chivalry, Stachel.
Bruno Stachel: [poring himself a drink] Chivalry? To kill a man, then make a ritual out of saluting him – that's hypocrisy. They kill me, I don't want anyone to salute.
Willi von Klugermann: [Stachel slams down his glass] They probably won't.

Dear Editor in Chief Bill.

Would that we could.

If you read Jon Peterson's "Playing at the World" which is a history of Dungeons and Dragons, which must then get into its "miniature roots" you find that the old greats of the hobby were no different. Tony Bath and Don Featherstone hated each other for 15 years and never spoke to each other. Jack Scruby and Don Featherstone, fell out over the realism/playability debate back in the 60's which led to them boycotting each others publications (Wargamers Newsletter and Table Top Talk) and Don Featherstone freely admitted he hated playing any other rules than his own. Of you Read Featherstone's Newsletter not one issue managed to avoid having nastygrams about this club or that club in England, how this approach to war games was absurd, or that way of doing things was the mark of the devil. There is one example of one wargame club disbanding itself and reforming itself simply to get rid of younger gamers and people who were "disruptive" or how so and so didn't want to admit new members, preferring the same old group, while others accused others of "stoginess" and so forth.

D&D and what followed were no different.

The internet has allowed a whole new dimension to this, with people being able to bare their nasty, filthy, mean little souls and heap abuse on others, not for anything but that they can do so from the veil of anonymity. If they behaved that way in real life face to face they'd have their teeth kicked out.

If you are inclinded to doubt, just look at TMP and how, since you have instituted your ferocious dawghousing policy (which by the way I FULLY SUPPORT), the instances have gone way down and people must exhibit their sociopathy in arguments about French Drum Majors being superheroes. If you are inclined to doubt, look at how many posts are mere quacking of approval of this group or antoher, or the offering of the august opinion of people who know nothing about what they are talking, or the just plain ankle-bititng and nay saying of any and all.

Long ago this had a bit of allure and I have spent many hours in the dawghouse because of it, but in the end, it proves itself to be unprofitable and transient in its enjoyment.

How many times do you see people post "Hey, this is what my group and I do, and this is how we do it, and we roll two dice and take the average of the days or the month, and apply it this way to resolve staff conflicts in our game. It sounds strange, but it works" whereupon the legions of ankle-biters and nay sayers, universal experts and picayune pundits descend on the idea and tear it apart. Few EVER say "Hey, sounds stupid, but if you say it works we'll give it a try." Nor do they when someone posts a long battle report ask how they handled this or that.

There are those of us Bill, who operate under the ethos you desire. They do best in basement groups and small clubs but remember, in those environments the ankle-biters-nay sayers- and picayune pundits have already self selected out or just not been invited back. This is harder to do in public places like stores or formal clubs where you have to take the bad with the good, and on the internet the ankle-biters, nay-sayers, and picayune pundits flock to your standard. I call them the Vamps.

Want to know who they are? Simple, they are the frequent posters but they NEVER post a battle report, idea, or a "Hey I found a way to make really great trees by forming up mortar around wire armatures- absolutely indestructible" or something like that. But they're always there to do what they do best, tear down the contributions of others.

I like to create battle reports, stories, ideas, and I like to write rules and develop games, and I give them away. I run a convention of like minded people who do the same, all or big-time game masters and designers and all of them are in it for the joy of the hobby and trying new things, and only Mules and Tramps are allowed, no Vamps. I try, on TMP to only talk about this convention and post battle reports and game things.

The sad fact is Bill that some people just like to be nasty.

I agree with you as to the way we SHOULD be.

As I tell all my friends who are political junkies.

If you want to change the world change the system.
If you want to change the system change the people.
If you want to change the people you have to change individuals
If you want to change individuals start with yourself.
Look in the mirror.

There is another aspect to wargaming that I think you are missing Bill: it reveals people's true character. And while this can occasionally be an ugly thing; it is certainly a useful thing.

Kevin

Fallen Nature of Man

"I wish we had more of that spirit in our hobby today."

But its there in spades. Its the spirit I encounter on a regular basis in the wargaming community. And not just in the UK, but in my experience in Europe, the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and elsewhere.

I'm surprised you think it is lacking.

Those of you who actually have regular opponents are lucky.

Bill,

Also remember what you first wrote. You called the chivalry of the air war a legend. It likely was. You then can't expect that mere humans are going to live to a higher code based on a myth. Would be nice but luckly not going to happen.

I'm surprised you think it is lacking.

Maybe I am in a position to see it more clearly.

I doubt it Bill. David Manley is right. I've gamed with hundreds of people in the last year and the experience is invariably positive. You should perhaps actually get out and game more rather than view the wargaming world through the prism of TMP and a handful of individuals you appear to be fixated on.

By removing posts that have apparently crossed a line but not sanctioning the individuals who have made group attacks, you encourage further poor behaviour. Patronising people who highlight misogyny, racism and other forms of intolerance and assuming that they are ignorant of others when this poor behaviour is repeated does little for the reputation of the site, which is apparently 'family friendly'. You suggest that we should be tolerant of those with offensive beliefs that are often nothing to do with wargaming, so can we assume that there will be a reduction in bannings and relaxation of the rules on attacks, whether personal or group?

p.s. If Otto is really here for the positive messages and wargames, then he should perhaps consider how he refers to his fellow gamers and also women. He boasted of being a misogynist some time ago and seems determined to remind people on a regular basis.

Aviators in WW1 didn't have to contend with the Internet…

Talk about respecting each other then posting questions about body/breath odour?

By removing posts that have apparently crossed a line but not sanctioning the individuals who have made group attacks, you encourage further poor behaviour.

Since when are people not Dawghoused for bad behavior?

Talk about respecting each other then posting questions about body/breath odour?

What does one have to do with the other?

I doubt it Bill. David Manley is right. I've gamed with hundreds of people in the last year and the experience is invariably positive. You should perhaps actually get out and game more rather than view the wargaming world through the prism of TMP and a handful of individuals you appear to be fixated on.

I see it more clearly because I see the attacks that are made on many members of the TMP community, by those who think they are somehow superior or in a position to judge their fellow gamers.

If Otto is really here for the positive messages and wargames, then he should perhaps consider how he refers to his fellow gamers and also women. He boasted of being a misogynist some time ago and seems determined to remind people on a regular basis.

There you go again… can't you just accept that Otto is Otto?

So you *are* saying that it's okay to call site members sociopaths and use terms like 'skanks' when talking about female miniatures, because that's 'just who people are'.

Glad we cleared that up. That should make the job of 'moderating' much easier, although I'm not sure you've fully considered the implications.

Chivalry in the air was dead the moment someone took a sporting rifle up and started taking potshots. so I think that kind of undermines your argument.

The Code of Chivalry:
link

can't you just accept that Otto is Otto?

If Otto is a self-declared misogynist, wouldn't the Code demand he be challenged?

I've "crossed swords" with the Brave Sir Otto on his statements about women on a number of occasions. I understand that some people like to expel hot air on subjects such as racism, genocide, gun violence but as a parfait gentil knight (see Chaucer) I am forced to challenge their views from time to time.
I don't see it as "attacks on TMP members" but as opposition to unacceptable viewpoints. It's not so much I expect to change such people into humanitarian, caring and decent human beings as standing up & being counted.

Interesting thread this, Bill.

Surely not, Goonfighter? I've seen Waldo Pepper.

Why should one accept someone as they are when what they are is abhorrent to civilised people?

Should we also accept someone who views, for example, Jews or Mormons in the same way that Otto views women?

Eric

A member of a gaming group that I am involved with had an army of his stolen at the local FLGS. All of the longer-standing guys got together and donated and painted up a unit to replace his missing troops. So many folks were involved that he basically doubled the missing army. Those are the type of gamers I usually see. Seems pretty chivalrous to me.

The overwhelming majority of gamers I interact with in person and on the net are pleasant, decent people and the few that are not are easy to avoid.

That said, I cannot think of anyone who would seriously consider that the terms chivalry and gaming belong in the same sentence except when tiny lead knights are involved.

Ok, Bill I have an idea.

Why not open a new "order" The Loyal Order of Wargamers.
Perhaps even have levels:
Member of the order of Wargamers
Knight of the order of Wargamers
Champion of the order of Wargamers
Paladin of the order of Wargamers
Perhaps for those who work hard to make things happen: A Gunga-Din of the order of Wargamers

The idea would be to encourage good behavior with positive feedback and recognition from our peers. It could be by nomination and then a vote by a roundtable to elect those who set an example in good behavior, both here and at conventions.

This could be both fun and helpful. I know that ever since someone paid for a year membership at TMP for me I have endeavored to Walk Worthy of that gift.

Okay for the sake of transparency I have only skimmed most of the postings on this topic as well as another similar thread started by The Editor. Mea Culpa if my musings have already been well stated, any misinterpretation is solely my responsibility.

First, Bill I think you are not seeing the forest for the trees. For all the negatives about TMP the positives I think far outstrip the downsides and those who have a problem with being civil.

Second, if I see something that walks like a duck, quacks like said duck, I am going to call it the water fowl that it is. As a librarian I work every day to help people to gain literacy in a wide range of areas, whether it is reading, computer skills, job hunting, research, what ever it is I seek to find the most accurate and vetted information to help those who come to the library I work in. By extension and because as a librarian we uphold an ethical code I will not stand by when I see false information, bigotry and/or hate being propagated. Yes, I can skip over the comments of some and oft time do because life is short and venting my spleen at some online troll is not going to significantly improve the world. I am not going to change the offender's point of view. Yet sometimes you have to simply stand up for decency and let the troll know that they are just that, a troll.

So you *are* saying that it's okay to call site members sociopaths and use terms like 'skanks' when talking about female miniatures, because that's 'just who people are'.

Of course not, and such infractions have been dealt with in the past.

At your local game club, do you enforce political correctness? Does everyone have to be 100% perfect all the time? I hope not.

Why should one accept someone as they are when what they are is abhorrent to civilised people?

Should we also accept someone who views, for example, Jews or Mormons in the same way that Otto views women?

So you can't participate in a wargaming forum unless you can pass some kind of 21st Century, First World belief test? Wouldn't that exclude millions of people?

I'm a Mormon. At the wargame table, I really don't care what you think of my religion. Should I shun someone because they dislike my religion? That doesn't seem very Christian.

If someone at the wargaming club says something incorrect about Mormons, I can correct them kindly. I don't need to have them expelled from the club just for a few intolerant remarks. Perhaps, through my own tolerance and example, I might win them over.

Why are you talking about wargames clubs in relation to issues on your site Bill? Conversations at clubs are rarely recorded for posterity and have a very limited audience. This is not the case with the internet, where conversations are shared and discussed elsewhere, with consequences for the reputation of your site. I assume you want a positive and welcoming one for all gamers?

I generally find that people focus on the game when we're at the club and elsewhere, I don't know about you. A good number of people I game with are women and yet it is rare that there is any need to 'enforce' any 'political correctness', whatever that means. People generally know the boundaries of what is appropriate, but yes, very occasionally conversations have been had. Whilst there can be useful information to find on the site, as well as entertaining conversations at times, I am entirely unsurprised that visible women gamers are a rarity here.

What I also note is that you regularly have issues on the site with people expressing 'controversial' views that are nothing to do with wargaming, historical or otherwise, resulting in deletion of threads and inconsistent sanctions, despite having a separate off topic forum. If you continue to provide inconsistent messages such as in this thread and elsewhere, this situation will continue.

Why are you talking about wargames clubs in relation to issues on your site Bill?

Because it's the same issue. Why would you have higher expectations of a larger community, than your small local gaming community? And this is not an issue at TMP, but throughout the hobby and on the internet.

If you continue to provide inconsistent messages such as in this thread and elsewhere, this situation will continue.

I am simply promoting tolerance. Is that an "inconsistent message"?

Expectations are different because I've yet to see a lengthy rules of conduct such as supposedly govern this website, administered by one individual, at any games club or group I've belonged to.

It's also different because games groups are primarily for the playing of games. TMP is primarily for talking about games. Do you see the difference?

I've yet to see the widespread issues you describe in gamers in person, so I would dispute your subjective statement. In the many interactions with gamers from all over the country in the past year alone, I've yet to see people spouting off intolerant views in a gaming environment. I can't speak for their personal lives, but that's not the area you were talking about.

Finally, by not moderating inappropriate discussion consistently, you have promoted intolerance.

"Judge ye not, lest ye be judged!"

Always found those good words to live by!

Dear Ben

you declared me a misogynist. I am not and never was one. The incident you found so repellent was I stopped a woman in a public store destroying the display and merchandise of the owner, and told her if she didn't clean it up I would call the cops. I got the thanks of the store, the clerks (all women) and a gift certificate. You have issued a libelous charge and carried this on here and Frothers, and on another forum, where you were warned to stop it. I don't mind, it's the way you are, you are perfect examples of the type of person that makes TMP a trial. I'd do the same to you as I did to the woman if you were committing an act of vandalism.

Expectations are different because I've yet to see a lengthy rules of conduct such as supposedly govern this website, administered by one individual, at any games club or group I've belonged to.

It's also different because games groups are primarily for the playing of games. TMP is primarily for talking about games. Do you see the difference?

I've yet to see the widespread issues you describe in gamers in person, so I would dispute your subjective statement. In the many interactions with gamers from all over the country in the past year alone, I've yet to see people spouting off intolerant views in a gaming environment. I can't speak for their personal lives, but that's not the area you were talking about.

Finally, by not moderating inappropriate discussion consistently, you have promoted intolerance.

Why are you being so unpleasant?

"such as supposedly govern this website"
"Do you see the difference?"
"by not moderating inappropriate discussion consistently"

Who are you to come in here, treat me with disdain, talk down to me, and criticize my work? Come back when you can talk to another human being with basic respect – you have not earned my reply.

…he replied.

Otto, you declared yourself, not me. It was back around the time of the NMB debacle. That's not an incident I was referring to. Interesting you brought it up. If you'd not decided to lecture others on their behaviour on this thread I probably wouldn't have bothered bringing your comments up though.

As you're someone who is here just for the wargames talk, I'm surprised a quick search showed that 30% of your last 100 posts are in the Naked Miniatures Board, as of yesterday. I wonder how many are positive.

Yes and I panned most of them if you bother to read. Ask Armand.

This conversation repeats itself every so often.

The answer is always the same, and every time the quest goes on to find a different answer.

Taco Bell thing????????

Did I miss another tempest in a teapot?

There should be a list, so I can keep up.

You missed a good one!

TMP link

Further confirmation that staying off the "Plus" boards is a huge win…