"Canada won the War of 1812, U.S. historian admits" Topic

"In a relatively rare admission for an American scholar, a leading U.S. historian who authored a provocative new tome about North American military conflicts states bluntly that Canada won the War of 1812.

Johns Hopkins University professor Eliot Cohen, a senior adviser to former U.S. secretary of state Condoleezza Rice, writes in his just-published book Conquered Into Liberty that, "ultimately, Canada and Canadians won the War of 1812."

And Cohen acknowledges that, "Americans at the time, and, by and large, since, did not see matters that way.",…"
From here
link

Amicalement
Armand

Canada? Um no, the British Government of Canada I believe, so be a man and say the British. Canada was not an independent nation then.

We have to invade before they build a wall.

Absolutely correct – the US war aim was, at least from the perspective of many in the government, to conquer British North America (impressment having been ended before hostilities started) and the British war aim was to hang on to them – so it would be safe to say that the British Empire achieved their aim and the US did not

No hard feelings, I hope

What were American war aims were in the War of 1812 depended on who you talk to as the United States was deeply divided over the war and what its aims were. The conquest of Canada was the only way the Americans (along with privateering)could attack Britain. In one of their war aims the Americans did win. With the death of Tecumseh the last great coalition of eastern tribes was shattered and never again would they seriously challenge the expansion of the United States into Indian land. The British abandoned their First Nations allies to avoid conflict with the Americans, a valuable trading partner. Otherwise, we kicked Cousin Jonathan's butt! :)

Good for him, but it is far too complicated to say anyone won or lost. And the UK had not stopped impressment before the war. They did not stop it due to the war either. All sides more or less got sick of the whole thing.

6 frigates is a good book on the topic.

Insofar as the folks of the US are not British citizens now, we won.

Insofar as the folks of Canada are not US citizens now, they won.

Let's call it a draw!

As Canada did not exist as an independent state during 1812-1815, the idea that Canada 'won' is somewhat ludicrous. They were still belonged to Great Britain.

And, with a few exceptions such as the excellent Glengarry Light Infantry, it was the British army that defended Canada against the US, not the Canadians.

And since the Treaty of Ghent, that ended the war, returned the 'situation' to what it was before the war, the war was a draw.

And it should be noted that the campaigns of 1814 went against the British. They lost at Plattsburg, Baltimore, and New Orleans and the British Right Division did not win any actions on the Niagara frontier that year-they lost two and one was a draw, even though the Americans withdrew across the Niagara River in November.

British war aim wasn't to reconquer the US so returning to the status quo meant a British victory.
Despite it being taught as a Second War of Independence, it wasn't.

it is not "ludicrous" at all to say Canada won. Just because Canada was not an independent nation state at the time does not mean that the people that lived there did not have separate, unique interests that were different from Britain. Your binary view of only seeing state actors is a bit myopic.

Since the US did, in fact, gain large amounts of territory during the war, one can only conclude that the professor's area of specialization is in another period of history. I suggest reading Frank Owesley's Struggle for the Gulf Borderlands for a more accurate appraisal.

Rick

The US gained large amounts of territory during the war?? What am I missing? I didn't think directly that was the case.

Spose some of us do know how long a piece of string is.

The US gained large amounts of territory during the war?? What am I missing? I didn't think directly that was the case.

Perhaps not directly, but it was de facto the case. Before the war, Great Britain refused to acknowledge the Louisiana Purchase. And kept putting off the border determination they'd agreed to in 1783. Both were remedied in the new treaty.

British war aim wasn't to reconquer the US so returning to the status quo meant a British victory.

The British held US territory and their initial proposals at Ghent were to retain it and to redraw the US northern borders.

For their invasion of Louisiana, they had government officials with the invasion force to 'govern' what they expected to take.

None of the US war aims were the conquest of Canada. The reasons the US went to war are spelled out in the primary documents on the subject and Canada wasn't one of them. The US invaded Canada because it was the one place where the US could get at the British on the ground. And that strategy evolved after the declaration of war, not before it.

And, yes, the US did get large amounts of land during the war, generally to the south.

Wellington informed the British government that the taking of US possessions should be abandoned. He also refused to serve in Canada. As the peace treaty was signed with no loss of US territory after the British failures on the Niagara, at Plattsburg and at Baltimore (with more to come at New Orleans) the war was a definite draw.

Excellent primary source material can be found in The War of 1812: Writing's from America's Second War of Independence. Madison's War Message to Congress is on page 1; the US House of Representatives, Committee on Foreign Relations: Report on the Causes and Reasons for War begins on page 10.

Letters from Wellington to Liverpool (page 602) and Liverpool to Canning (page 635) are interesting, as is the peace treaty itself (page 621).

The volume is well-worth having.

….the US war aim was, at least from the perspective of many in the government, to conquer British North America (impressment having been ended before hostilities started) and the British war aim was to hang on to them – so it would be safe to say that the British Empire achieved their aim and the US did not

The British did in fact negate the Orders in Council before the shooting started, but it wasn't done soon enough to stop the American declaration of war, unfortunately.

And the evidence available supports the fact that the taking of Canada was not one of the US war aims.

Thanks Kevin!.

Amicalement
Armand

What some folks on the forum may not be aware of is that the bulk of the campaigning and much of the fighting were in parts of Alabama, Georgia and Florida that were not part of US territory before the war began, but were acquired as a direct consequence of the US victories over the Creek, British and Spanish troops.

Armand has posted a link that contains a good summary of the most (but not all) of the major campaigns in the south.

TMP link

Rick

Rick, do not forget that the Americans had Cherokee, Choctaw and Lower Creek allies. They only defeated the Upper Creek tribes with many joining the Seminoles after the Second and Third Creek Wars. This was just the first, though the most contested. Americans used mainly volunteers and militia with only a few Regular companies. Even Jackson and the Georgia artillery were manned by volunteers. Most Georgia troops were assigned to guard ports from British raids along the Atlantic coast. They sent some troops but failed to supply them for more than an attack or two.the Louisiana guys were better supplied advanced as they did from the west.