Ligniere | 09 Aug 2016 8:26 a.m. PST |
There were always exceptions where men would survive for decades, and long service chevrons in the French army were issued in multiple of eight years service, but I wonder how long the average conscript could expect to survive after joining the army? I recently completed reading Bernard Wilken's, Fighting for Napoleon: French Soldiers Letters 1799-1815, and I was struck by how few were written by actual survivors of the wars. link |
marshalGreg | 09 Aug 2016 8:40 a.m. PST |
Probably a big factory for the lack of letters is the rank and file's lack of enough education to read and write. If one could do so usually moved to officer or NCO, if a good soldier (and survived those actions to prove worthy of a good soldier). MG |
Ligniere | 09 Aug 2016 8:47 a.m. PST |
MG, It's not the shortage of letters that's the issue – soldiers would often have others write letters for them. It merely struck me that many of these lads, that were conscripted in January 1811, for example, wrote home in May of the same year, and were dead of disease or combat before the year was out. Sure, many others survived, but a percentage of them didn't, and my question was what the average life expectancy would have been during the conflict. Was it six months, ten years, or something in between? It maybe no information is available, but if it is, I'd be interested to hear. Obviously for many of the conscripts that went to Russia in 1812, their life expectancy was less than a year. Was that the same in Spain, or during the 1809 campaign? |
marshalGreg | 09 Aug 2016 9:16 a.m. PST |
Yes all good questions. And how to determine? There should be good records somewhere of typical attrition from one campaign to another. The 1806 has a pretty good stats IIRC. My point "of the letters" was it can give a poor impression of the reality for determining attrition, which you indicate by the statement …"I was struck by how few were written by actual survivors of the wars" It is perhaps so few bother to find someone to write for them or feel to have something written (all due to the amount of literacy at the conscript level) and then there is still the fact that letters were lost through the ages, yet to be found. MG
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4th Cuirassier | 09 Aug 2016 10:08 a.m. PST |
Two thousand pounds of education Drops to a ten-rupee jezail In this era, were your chances of survival in battle any better as a veteran than a conscript? Unless you were in the Old Guard, you were in the same front line regardless. The same bullet would be equally fatal whether you had 16 weeks' service or 16 years. Off-battle you might have a better chance – your foraging skills would be better – but when all's said and done, minus 20 degrees is minus 20 degrees and stunningly cold for everyone. It is an interesting question though. Urban's Rifles book gives some idea of this – he lists the fate of the characters he focuses on – but of course it's not data. |
Ligniere | 09 Aug 2016 10:35 a.m. PST |
The other cold hard fact is that disease killed many more than the bullet when on campaign. During periods of peace, when soldiers would be in garrison or depot, and less fatigued or threatened by the rigors of campaign, the incidence of death would presumably be dramatically reduced. Similarly, the losses due to disease during a short campaign, such as the last Waterloo campaign, would be negligible. Whereas the men of the regiments that marched against the Prussians in 1806, fought at Jena/Auerstadt, and then found themselves standing in the line at Friedland the following year, having suffered the battles and cold of the winter campaign of 1806/07, I wonder how many of those survived to fight in Spain or Russia. |
rmaker | 09 Aug 2016 12:01 p.m. PST |
Further factors on the letters are the questions of survival and availability of the letters themselves. Many families would not see them as valuable, especially to anyone outside the family. And some families might destroy what they considered "embarrassing" documents (e.g., Frederick Ward of the Ever Victorious Army). I have friends who are ACW researchers and they say that the all too frequent remark is "Oh, we burned Great Grandpa's letters. Nobody would be interested in them anyway." In fact, my sister burned all of my father's letters home to my Mother from WW2. |
Ligniere | 09 Aug 2016 12:10 p.m. PST |
This is what makes the letters in the book interesting. They represent over 1500 letters, held in public archive, all written by soldiers from the Ourthe department in current Belgium. The contents of many of the letters are mundane – send money, send clothing – but occasionally there are also little gems of information. What triggered my initial question were the potted biographies that the editor/author offered for each of the letter writers, and what seemed to be a high percentage of those that never had an opportunity to write more than one. |
deadhead | 09 Aug 2016 1:09 p.m. PST |
Now if it took five years to train the "average drummer" to competency…and we accept that Napoleon's army did have trained drummers…then statistically they must have lived on average longer than…….. No let's not open that again. where is the delete button? What is horrifying is that half of all soldiers survived less than even just the average time allowed to them…… |
Norman D Landings | 09 Aug 2016 2:00 p.m. PST |
Yeah, there was a elephant in the room, wasn't there? A great big elephant… with amazing drumming prowess. |
Aberrant | 09 Aug 2016 2:28 p.m. PST |
It would be rather difficult to come up with a meaningful figure for the Napoleonic wars in general and even for any particular nation. Life expectancy would be affected by a range of factors such as nationality, arm of service, involvement in major campaigns, location of service, who his commanders were, etc. For example, a Frenchman conscripted in 1808 would probably have been exposed to danger more consistently than a similar Austrian conscript as France was at war more than Austria after that date. As another example, one Frenchman conscripted in 1808 might find himself serving in an infantry battalion in one of the active corps in Spain, while another might find himself posted to garrison duty in Rome,Venice or Corfu. For the British army, service in Spain was dangerous, but nowhere near as dangerous as being posted to the West Indies, despite the lack of an enemy there. Eric |
Cerdic | 09 Aug 2016 2:28 p.m. PST |
Wait! An elephant that can play the drums? How long did THAT take to train? |
attilathepun47 | 09 Aug 2016 3:23 p.m. PST |
A recent academic study by Dr. I.M. Teedeous found that while it took, on average, 3.78 years to train an Indian elephant to play the drums, African elephants (who have natural rhythm) required only 18.2 months. |
Lascaris | 09 Aug 2016 4:18 p.m. PST |
You left out the now extinct North African elephant used by Hannibal. An animal smart enough to cross the alps could could likely attain drumming competence in 20-30 minutes! |
Frederick | 09 Aug 2016 4:29 p.m. PST |
I suspect it depended a great deal on which army you belonged to, when you joined and where you got posted For example, a French recruit in 1809 posted to a garrison in Calais would probably have a pretty good life expectancy |
Timbo W | 09 Aug 2016 4:42 p.m. PST |
Iirc when a Russian was conscripted as a soldier in Napoleonic times his family held a funeral as his chances of ever returning were reckoned extremely slim. |
forwardmarchstudios | 09 Aug 2016 5:04 p.m. PST |
IIRC, 1 million French soldiers died during the Napoleonic Wars all told, correct? If we had a total number for all the men who served that might help us figure it out. TimboW- that was also because the conscription period was 20 years or something, basically life. With how bad infrastructure was in Russia at the time, they probably would almost never get home. |
dibble | 09 Aug 2016 9:04 p.m. PST |
You may all scoff about elephant drummers, but Babar's ancestor took 25 years to train to play the drums. 1 year to play and 24 hold the sticks. Paul :) |
Martin Rapier | 10 Aug 2016 3:18 a.m. PST |
Looking at a few campaigns, campaign losses were of the order of 33% (with wide variations – Russia anyone?) and some other figures put the loss rates for the French conscription classes 1790-95 at 38%. Which would translate into rough average life expectancies of 3 years. |
Martin Rapier | 10 Aug 2016 7:00 a.m. PST |
Just like WW1 and WW2, it is entirely possible that veterans survived while raw conscripts dropped like flies, so distribution of life expectancy is very asymmetrical. |
Ligniere | 10 Aug 2016 7:49 a.m. PST |
Martin, Completely agree. The conscription law [1798 Loi Jourdan] stipulated that the term of enlistment would be for five years. However, post 1804, it appears that discharge would occur primarily due to medical reasons, and not because the term of enlistment had been completed. Many veterans, at that point, either continued their service, as they knew little else, or were dead. |
dibble | 10 Aug 2016 8:18 a.m. PST |
The oldest private 'for example' in the 45th foot on campaign in the Peninsula was 57 years. Paul :) |
Ligniere | 10 Aug 2016 9:12 a.m. PST |
Well that soldier sure skewed the averages! Did 57 years of age mark his entrance, or exit from the campaign? |