"M5 or M5A1 Halftracks?" Topic

On Saturday I purchased a box of 1/72 Plastic Soldier Company M5 Halftracks to put together for a British force I plan on doing thanks to the successful 25 pdr kickstarter they ran.

I opened the box and saw the M5 and M5A1 variants, and figured a simple Google query would let me know really what I should do as far as whether to go for the A1 or not. I was wrong.

So, I'm hoping someone can help me decide what to do. I plan on using the same models for the 8th Army in Italy as well as Guards Armoured in Market Garden. In both cases, they will be to ferry Motor Platoons.

That said, I have three questions:

1) Should I do a M5 or a M5A1? Aesthetically, I like the M5 over the M5A1, but I do like both.

2) Should the halftracks have a .50cal or not? I've read that the British usually did away with them, but if it's reasonable to have one on there I like the look

3) Related, should the halftracks have the .30cal off the back? I like the look, but I'm much more certain these were not used by the British in any numbers.

Hopefully the expertise of TMP can help me with my dilemma!

Does it really matter? Chances are its get knocked out one turn into the game anyway. Go with the one you like the best.

You make a good point, Rich… these halftracks will not last long on the table!

However, I am still curious to hear about what versions were common in the two theatres. My granddad (who passed away when I was one) drove a halftrack while with the British 8th Army in Italy, so there's a bit of a curiosity/learning/family thing there.

Since the A1 was an upgrade, it would seem to depend on the time period you want to model: the later in the war, the more common the A1 version.

At the risk of getting shot down….

I thought the M5A1 was more or less purely a U.S. vehicle, and this was the version with the big .50 cal with optional .30 cal on the rear?

I think the M5 was used as an artillery tractor in UK service, without the MG's, and the ubiquitous Universal carrier acted in the half track role?

I went through almost this exact issue about 2 years ago with 15mm PSC tracks. I searched through several threads on TMP, a lot of Google and looked in whatever books I could find. Eventually, I went with all M5A1s for my motor platoon and 17 pdr tows. I think I preferred that model but I'm sure I eventually found a photo of a group of halftracks to justify it. I also went with no MGs. The consensus was they were supplied but not mounted for either logistical or doctrinal reasons.

I was focused on NWE so I can't speak to the Italian theater.

My recollections are along the lines of what is posted already.

The M5 was the common lend-lease version sent to Britain and others. Some sources say they were delivered un armed and some say they came with MGs. Many/most say that as a rule they were issued by the British without MGs. In fact, I recall reading that they took delivery of some M16 versions and stripped out the Quad .50s to use the vehicle for transport.

All that said, there were definitely some British vehicles with .50s, .30s and even Brens mounted on them.

I thought the M5A1 was more or less purely a U.S. vehicle

No, nearly all IHC halftracks (M5, M9 and corresponding A1s) went to Lend-Lease, only used for training by US forces.

The M5 was the common lend-lease version sent to Britain and others. Some sources say they were delivered un armed and some say they came with MGs. Many/most say that as a rule they were issued by the British without MGs. In fact, I recall reading that they took delivery of some M16 versions and stripped out the Quad .50s to use the vehicle for transport.

The AA halftracks that were converted back to other uses by Commonwealth forces were again the IHC based vehicles (M14, M17) not the M16 which, being an M3 based vehicle, was standardised for US use.

"I think the M5 was used as an artillery tractor in UK service, without the MG's, and the ubiquitous Universal carrier acted in the half track role?"

No, the Motor battalions replaced their 15cwt trucks with halftracks, but also had a carrier platoon in each company, so they had a mix of halftracks and carriers.

They were also used as tows, OP vehicles tec.

the a1 variant should have the pulpit & side racks fitted and some units did indeed have the .50's mounted i think it was the guards who had some of them with hmg's
also seen with brens mounted,
used as gun tows more in italy than nwe though, but also command variants.
the british also had some m3's but very few only seen pics of mediteranean theatre ones.
the guards also kept the m16/17's with mg's

I did mine as M5A1s and as a compromise only put the .50 Cal. on the Platoon leader's vehicle.

I can only offer up some information on Guards Armored as I am finishing mine up for Rapid Fire. This is of course for 1944-45 Northwest Europe.

Guards Armored had both the M5 and M5A1. I have heard that some of the M5A1s did have a .50 but have yet to see a picture of one of their halftracks sporting one. Also have read that the pulpit was also used, at times, to mount a Bren instead but once again, during my research, could not find a Guards Armored M5A1 with one in that position. And adding to the misery could not find one of theirs with a .30 on the rear.

If anyone has some pictures would love to add them to my resources. Meanwhile I think nazrat has a good idea of putting a .50 on a Platoon leader's vehicle if for no other reason then to differentiate it.

Do you know how the British squads were equipped? Typically the MG mounts on an armored transport belonged to the squad itself. So, if a squad was armed with a .30 or .50 they could choose to mount it on the armored carrier or not. If for some reason they choose to dismount & send the track to the rear, they'll take the squad weapons with them.

I'm not a rivet counter, but I served with an armored company in the1980s and that was how we treated the mounts on the personnel carriers. I'd heard it was the same practice as WW II.

Lots of good information here!

I'm thinking I will be doing them as M5s (as opposed to M5A1s) and will not be putting the .50cal or .30cal on them.

Although, I do like nazrat's suggestion of putting the .50cal on the platoon leader's vehicle!

marc
i have seen video footage of them with the hmg mounted, but cannot remember what program it was on sorry.

Shaun if you do remember would be much obliged!

Wizbangs this has all you ever want to know about the makeup of an American Armored Infantry unit:
PDF link

Note they mention the .50 on the halftrack but they specifically mention the .30 were also on the halftrack but meant for dismounted use.

I can only guess here and would hope someone more knowledgeable steps in but am guessing substitute Bren for the .30 and probably similiar for British units.

British Motor Sections were eight strong, a Corporal, six riflemen/gun numbers and a driver, with one Bren per Sec. That remained largely unchanged from 1938 to 1945. The original transport was the 15-cwt truck, which was unarmed. Halftracks were issued fairly close to Overlord to replace the 15-cwts, and there was no absolute need for them to be armed as they were handled like softskins rather than assault vehicles. If you can get the search to work there are multiple threads on the subject here with plenty of info to be found.

Gary

marc, i think it was one of those docs like ww2 in colour or a uk movies for men, (channel 48) which have loads of footage that has nothing to do with the subject!
they were in silhouete and definately had .50 hmgs mounted.

I remember reading that the lendlease Shermans were provided to the Sovs complete with SMG's and radios. Wouldn't the MG be part of the kit for a halftrack?

I did mine as M5A1s and as a compromise only put the .50 Cal. on the Platoon leader's vehicle.

Which is exactly what the US Army did too – not every half track came with a .50 mg

I did a mix for my Half tracks – sections of 4 with mixed stuff attached for visual recognition at arms length
Also, my understanding was that 11th Armoured Div took the Anti aircraft 50cals from their Shermans (the ones that the commander fires) & mounted them on half tracks & bren carriers for their motor & carrier platoons to beef up their firepower as they knew that the chances of any aircraft being overhead being other than allied was slim.
Also, as tanks & infantry worked closely together, the infantry could probably use the 50cal to better benefit
Realise that OP was discussing GAD or Italy so this last bit just added for additional info… I suspect that the Guards, being Guards, did things more by the book