"Sub on Sub action" Topic

Looking for suggestions on suitable opponents in USA/RN subs against USSR subs.

Also, suggestions for suitable surface ships, thinking of Hunt for Red October type actions.

Thanks,

Alan

Well, for US vs. USSR Los Angeles Class vs. Victor III, Sierra, Tango or Akula (among others). RN Trafalgar Class vs. Same.

Surface ships, you would be looking for primarly ASW assets, so US Frigates such as the Perry, Adams and Knox, for the RN Amazon and Broadsword, for the Soviets Krivak, Grisha and Udaloy Classes (among others).

This recommendation assumes 1980's time period.

Also you might have SSNs vs SSBNs, so LAs or T-boats/S-boats vs Typhoons or Deltas, or the various Soviet attack boats vs Ohios or Resolutions/Vanguards.

Many thanks for the suggestions.

Are there any good books available, apart from the fictions? I appreciate that, of course, such cold war warfare was very clandestine and no sub on sub action actually took place (or did it: engage conspiracy theory mode?).

Due to the hide and seek nature of submarines, I can't imagine how you do a sub on sub game without a GM or moderator. I've thought that modern naval actions were one of the few subjects that worked better on a computer than any other game format. I rue the day I upgraded computers and cavalierly tossed out my copies of Action Stations! and Harpoon.

What works may depend on what rules you are using (as much of the information on modern submarines is disputed and will thus vary between rules systems).

If you are using Harpoon I would recommend a wolfpack of 3 to 7 Foxtrot d/e subs (and perhaps a Kilo or Tango or two for good measure) against a fairly modern Western nuclear sub. Unless you have a GM a wolfpack will make for a better game than a hide & seek match between two modern-(ish) nuclear submarines (which will really need hidden movement to work well). You can vary the number of d/e subs for balance and (as long as the d/e player writes down standing orders beforehand) you won't have to mess around with hidden movement (or at least not as much).

For surface ships the Soviets built a large number of Krivak series frigates and more than few Kashin and Kanin-class destroyers, and you could create a reasonable ASW group out of those. If the action is close to the USSR itself (not unlikely) than you could replace some those ships with Grisha-class escorts.

To use an Eastern bloc submarine the most numerous Western ASW ships would likely be Perry or Spruance class ships of the USN (but those are likely to be on convoy escort duty and I get the impression that is not what you are after).

One final thing to consider (which seems unattested to in many rules systems) is that some Soviet ships e.g. Kanin-class destroyers) still used oil fired boilers (i.e. not diesels or turbines) in the late 1980s. Those engines put out a surprising amount of smoke. I would imagine that most Western submarines could make contact via sonar more easily, but a periscope sighting of an smoke is not beyond reason. To get an idea of what I mean see this picture (when I first saw this I thought the ship had a mechanical casualty or even a fire!)

For a more modern fiction book, you might want to look at Larry Bond's Shattered Trident. It has an interesting premise of Japan, Vietnam, and India against China starting out with a submarine blockade. U. S. Subs get involved, but are not the main combatants.

For an older book that gives you an idea of some Cold War tactics and missions, you might want to look for a book called "Sub vs. Sub" by Richard Compton-Hall (here is a link to some on Amazon link It came out in the late-80s and would seem to fit what you are looking for.

Are there any good books available, apart from the fictions?

Tom Clancy's SSN isn't bad. He's close enough to get investigated on his details, and has the attitude right for a Perisher-trained sub driver. They're much more aggressive than their US-trained counterparts.

I honestly haven't found a good subs v surface game outside of computers, and subs v subs is eggshells armed with sledgehammers playing hide and seek. Detection ranges are obscenely short for US subs (sorry, can't say exactly how short). Been there, played that game 1:1 scale, got the t-shirts and a mention in the patrol report for taking pictures of a carrier attempting to learn ASW against an Ohio-class.

I have a two sets of rules for Red October/Crimson Tide style games – Snapshot (snspshot.webs.com) and a conversion of the Avalon Hill card game gor tabletop ( files are in the file section of the boardgamegeek site – search for boardgamegeek attack sub on google). Both are designed for fun easy games and avoid (hopefully) Harpoon style complexity.

Regards

Rob

Sorry snapshotmodernsub.webs.com

Don't forget, if you're going for Snapshot, to go to Spartan Games to get the Dystopian Wars turning templates.