"BMP-1 Squad - 8 Passengers TO&E?" Topic

I know in the 1970s that supposedly the BMP-1s carried 8 x passengers, so am wondering about the TO&E for them.

Assuming that's true, would they have a second RPK gunner, in order to create two fireteams, or just add another guy with an AK?

The TO&Es I've come across mainly mention 7 dismounts, and that the extra seat if for occasional use, instead.

Given what we now know about the PKM MG platoon of 2 x extra BMPs carrying a total of 6 x MGs between the two vehicles, I'm not so sure.

Perhaps the intel on the 8 x guys was incorrect from the start.

I suspect misinformation from the start.

Jamming in more than six is rare.

Inside BMP-1.

In general, all written in different ways. Someone writes – 6 people, some 8, and someone 9 (but the last – after thinking about the experience of war in Afghanistan).

On 8 people landing I found the following data (especially for BMP-1):
Crew – 3 (squad leader, gunner, driver). Arming all – AK-74U.
Landing – 8 people (1 corporal (AK), 2 gunner (PC), 2 hand – Assistant gunners (AK), 1 rocket launcher arrows (RPG-7 and AK-74U), 1 gunner, assistant rocket launcher (AK), 1 shooter (AK)). Total – 2 machine guns, one RPG-7, 5 AK-74, 1 AK-74U.

If 6 people – the squad leader, a corporal, a machine gunner, grenade launcher, rocket launcher assistant shooter.

Immediately warn – this information is not very accurate. I then still see in old textbooks on the "basic military training" – there usually wrote the most basic ORBATs.

Bear in mind that the platoon leadership (lieutenant, radio guy and a marksman or something along those lines) don't get their own BMP.

My understanding is that one of them goes in each of the 3 BMP's along with a 6 (maybe 7?) man squad (typically).

Who cares what the TO&E is according to reality but how it is represented in the game.
Some games at skirmish level can represent exact TO&E, others have to generalise or abstract.
Should a game with the playing pieces being platoons have seperate sub units for HQs missile teams etc or should these be part of the platoon
Thats up to the game designer

"Landing – 8 people (1 corporal (AK), 2 gunner (PC), 2 hand – Assistant gunners (AK), 1 rocket launcher arrows (RPG-7 and AK-74U), 1 gunner, assistant rocket launcher (AK), 1 shooter (AK)). Total – 2 machine guns, one RPG-7, 5 AK-74, 1 AK-74U".

Was confused a bit by the mention of the AK-74U, but see that's a little SMG, which the RPG guy can carry as well. Thought for a moment there were 9 guys.

So, the listing you provided seems to have 8 guys, if I'm reading it correctly:

1 x corporal (AK),
2 x gunners (PC),
2 x hand – Assistant gunners (AK),
1 x rocket launcher arrows (RPG-7 and AK-74U),
1 x 1 gunner/assistant rocket launcher (AK),
1 x shooter (AK).

Are their LMGs belt fed, or box fed?

Assuming box fed, then perhaps the assistants can fire their AKs too, while attacking, instead of helping hold the ammo belts for the machine gunners. Seems to me that would be best, if attacking in front of their BMPs.

If with 7 men in the squad, do they lose the 2nd machine gun, or just a guy with an AK?

"If 6 people – the squad leader, a corporal, a machine gunner, grenade launcher, rocket launcher assistant shooter".

That's only 5 men. Presumably, an assistant machine gunner as well carrying an AK too, as above?

I want/need the info for skirmish gaming, but also need it for fire-team/squad level basing, and for determining relative firepower with the rules I'm considering using.

Adding a second MG'er to the squad really helps to bring them into better alignment with the firepower of mid-late Cold War era American troops, who have 2 – 3 machine guns/SAWs in their squads.

Machine guns put out a lot more effective firepower than your typical squaddie with an AK, especially at more than 300 – 350m range.

In US Army practice, based upon postings I've read from guys in the service posting here, they'd drop the M16s/M4s first, to keep the MGs/SAWs, and A/T weapons up to full strength, even foregoing assistant loaders, when necessary.

Seems firepower is everything in a firefight.

Here's some references as to squad make-up and seating in BMP-1's for East German NVA Motor Rifle squad and platoon organisation from the 1980's. These show 7 men per squad dismounts:

Squad: link

Platoon: link

Please note that an NVA Motor rifle company did NOT have an extra PKM MG platoon so had a total of 10 BMP's per coy – 1 for the Coy HQ and 3 platoons each of 3 BMP's.

Here's some from the same source about Soviet Motor Rifle squad, platoon and company organisation from the 1980's.

Squad: link

Platoon: link

Company: link

Hope this helps

Cheers
KRO

Bear in mind that they expected to operate very closely with the BMP for fire support, so having a single machine gun in the squad would have been more acceptable.

Yea, I guess that makes sense, but then begs the question, why add in the two-vehicle MG platoon too. Makes those seem superfluous, unless you expect the vehicle to die very quickly, which is a good bet. Probably very useful on offense, but especially defense, if that occurs.

Thanks for all the links.

Will check those out, and the info on the difference for the East Germans is very useful, since I want to do those too.

In the 1970s the Soviet motorifle company also had 12 vehicles, not 10, as was commonly believed (only Warsaw Pact allies had the 10 vehicle TO&E). One for the company HQ, 9 for 3 rifle platoons, 2 for the machinegun platoon (2 PKM teams per vehicle).

The fact that the BMP-1 must be placed 11 people (8 of them in the troop compartment) – it is absolutely accurate. But it was quickly changed to 8 people. But to fill 8 people landing in BMP-1 is difficult. There, they say, and for 6 people place is not always enough.
Mainly TO&E in Internet are for BMP-2, but they are quite different from the early TO&Es of the BMP-1. Actually, in the BMP-2 fits only 6 people landing, and for the unification (in the army everything should be the same) and the BMP-1 after this have only 6 landing.

Hello, Kiwi Red One!
This is modern russian TO&E, not Soviet. They have major changes after Afghanistan, Chehenya and other conflicts. Soviet 1970-s organiasation is a spherical horse in vacuum, based mainly on theories.

Hello, Mako11!
Heck, Google -Translator divided assistant rocket launcher on 2 people. Of course, he was the only one. Actually, his task – to charge a grenade launcher (rocket launcher cram in is not so much, and just – I tried to do it when the school years we were sent to training sessions) and to carry missiles.
In fact, I made a mistake – grenade relies Stechkin automatic pistol or a Makarov pistol.
As for the gun I can not say exactly. Most likely, he was with magazine (RPK).
Yes, they lose the second gun. In general, to be a machine gunner in the Soviet / Russian army – not the most honorable duty. Drag this with the heavy thing wiht quavering box of billets is "very fun."
And as a rookie – it is just what it will be easier with AK. Here plays a big role is one thing – in the USSR and in Russia there is a school subject "basic military training", where the AK actually are – quick assembly-disassembly (the norm for the average lazy student – 40 seconds), quick reloading, clean, shooting (as far as I remember, on target at full height, at a distance of 300 m). A machine gun before the army only few people see, and MG the more difficult it is, to be honest.

Hello, Weasel!
The commander of the platoon is in one of the three BMP (which is considered the commander). Actually, he commanded not only that the BMP, but the remaining two.

Mechanised infantry squad in advance, by field manual (just then later landing, unified with BMP-2).

Translation from Russian:
Стр. – shooter
Пул. – machine gunner
Ком.отд. – squad-commander
Гр. мет. – soldier with RPG
Пом. гр. мет. – RPG soldier assistant
Ст. стрел. – corporal (major/good shooter)
БМП – BMP

UsmanK, Appreciate it!

My understanding is that the SVD rifle had an additional soldier just for that duty.
Is that correct or was it just given to one of the squads?

Hello, Weasel!
Hmm, that's a really good question.
As far as I understood from the fragmentary information, from the 1960s and to the Afghan war with the SVD sniper it was really additional soldier (who sitting in one of 2 command BMP's, not in "combat" BMP's). It was as if assistant platoon commander, and during the fight he was not in the advanced combat formations. It seems so, but I'm not sure – I can not find field manuals for the period from 1972 to 1978.
The experience of the Afghan war sniper introduced into the landing of each BMP.

I've read the sniper's got a regular AK too.

Always assumed he was just one of the regular members of the platoon unit/squad.

Mako – that was my original assumption, figuring it was like the scoped rifle the US and Germans handed out to the platoons in ww2, but a few sources seem to suggest it's a dedicated guy.

UsmanK – Appreciate it!

Having it be the assistant platoon commander makes sense, given that in ww2, SVT's would sometimes get issued to the squad leader, so there's a precedent for that sort of thing.

UsmanK – Of course you are quite right about those links, my apologies for thinking they were Soviet era.

Thanks for all the information you have posted.

By the way, here's another interesting link about the tactics of Soviet motorized troops in 1980-ies link
However, there is in Russian, but Google-translator translate this not bad (if something is not clear – write me).
Basically this information from the field manuals and tactics textbooks.

Hello, Mako11!
Yes, he has AK, just in case (SVD is not good sniper rifle, and she inaccurate). As ordinary member squad, he was in the most frequent TO&E.

Hello, Weasel!
You notice right – very much in 1950-1980-ies the Soviet army based on the experience of WWII.

Hello, Kiwi Red One!
Do not worry – they are really easy to confuse.

UsmanKs diagram of a Soviet 8 man squad in line gives the frontage of 50 meters
Did anyone notice?
The frontages in most miniatures games are at odds with this, especially CD, TY
It is error like this, correctable error, that makes me wonder if all of the realism talk is just window dressing for the Game

Yes, I saw that.

5m – 10m between each man seems pretty standard, as does 50m or so for vehicles.

Works out to 7m between each man, on average.

>It is error like this, correctable error, that makes me wonder if all of the realism talk is just window dressing for the Game

People are going to shout at me but the way I see it Frontage, distances, ground scale and all that jazz ultimately is subordinate to the simple fact of our physical kitchen table :-)

There's a reason most games have you move about 6" or so per turn for infantry.

Hello, Rick Don Burnette!
Well, let's say, this is assumption, but it is based on actual practice. No one in real life will not go to the line and check the distance is sustained or not. So it's quite a distance it could be more or less.
Especially because it is from field manual. And so it is said in the field manuals that everything that is not absolutely necessary is written in it. You must be flexible and adapt to the requirements of the statute of the real situation.

Important in this diagram:
1) infantry should not diverge far from the BMP (in the diagram indicate the distance NO MORE 50 meters (до 50 м.) and 50 meters is the maximum sector, which can control BMP).
2) infantry is chained to BMP and covers BMP. BMP, in turn, covers the infantry.
3) infantry do not sit in the BMP during the attack (this is mandatory for combined arms combat without the use of nuclear weapons, or BMP turn of "Infantry Fighting Vehicle" ("Boyevaya Machina Piechoty") in a "Mass Grave of Infantry" ("Bratskaya Mogila Piechoty")).

In looking over the very useful, East German reference pages that UsmanK provided, which I hadn't seen before, BMP personnel are spread across a frontage of 50m during the attack (leader in the center of the skirmish line group).

There's also supposed to be a gap of 50m between the infantry squad and the next one over, so really one BMP and squad cover a frontage of 100m, assuming they attack according to their battle manual. Obviously, that might be reduced, due to restrictive terrain.

Also, it is interesting to note, the seven East German BMP dismounts include:

1 x Squad Leader
2 x RPK MGs (with no assistant gunners)
1 x RPG gunner (RPG launcher, loaded, and 2 x more rockets)
1 x RPG assistant-gunner with 3 x more rockets, carrying AK
1 x AK rifleman
1 x Assistant Squad Leader with AK (usually has a grenade launcher fitted to his weapon)

So, even with only seven dismounts, there are two machine gunners in the squad, plus the machine gun on the BMP too (as UsmanK pointed out, the BMP company does not have the extra 2 x BMPs with MGs as well, so only ten vehicles in the unit, instead of 12 for the Soviet TO&E).

As far as I know, the NVA did not use an underslung grenade launcher…