"Late Cold War 105mm and 120mm Rounds?" Topic

Just curious to know when the following late Cold War ammunition became available in Europe?

I was looking over the penetrative stats for these, in the Challenger 2000 rules, and am not sure when they'd be available. Looked on-line a little, but didn't see any dates mentioned, other than they were first used in the 1991 Gulf War. I suspect they were probably available from around the mid-1980s on.

25mm Depleted Uranium (D.U.) ammo for the Bradley IFV
105mm D.U. ammo for the M-1 tank
120mm D.U. ammo for the M1A1 tank

Also, curious to know if the West German and British armies would field D.U. rounds for their tanks too?

I did see that the 30mm GAU of the A-10 had D.U. ammo from 1978. Some of it was fired during the Balkans conflict of the mid-1990s.

Finally, there's reference to a "high pressure", smooth-bore, 120mm round – APFSDS. I assume the references for that relate to the longer 120/55 gun of the Leopard 2A6, and not for the 120/44 of the earlier Leo 2 models.

Then again, perhaps there was some incremental improvement of the earlier models' 44 caliber guns, and the stats are for that, instead.

Any info you can provide on the above will be appreciated.

The 25mm DU ammo is the M919, which wasn't available until after Desert Storm (according to wiki). During Desert Storm, the T55 killer was the M791 APDS with a tungsten penetrator.

Wiki is no help for 105mm ammunition, for some reason.

The M829 series 120mm APFSDS round all have DU penetrators, and the A1 version was used in Desert Storm. The M829A2 entered service in 1993. The M829A3 completed type classification in 2003 and is in current service. The M829A4 just entered full rate production in 2016.

Thanks.

Found some info in the stats for the Chally 2000 vehicles.

M1 tank 1982 – APFSDS

M1A1 1985 – APFSDSDU

M1A1 1986 – APFSDSDU

So, as I suspected, looks like they had it around the mid-1980s.

No DU for the Brits or West Germans, according to the vehicle lists.

In case you're wondering, no DU ammo listings for the Soviet 125mm cannons prior to the end of the Cold War.
Bradleys got DU in 1994.

Mako…. all over the place with 105mm

Most draws until 1980 were 728.
Then you got a large inflow of 735, though second draws were still apds.
The 735 DU round was never deployed.

When the M1 was deployed you saw 774 in small numbers. It ramped up fairly quickly and the 728 was only in deep stores.

Around 85 the 833 round hit. Deployment was limited and mixed. Some M60 units got it… some M1 units. It was very limited as the round had lots of issues with accuracy. These were finally worked out… but not until late 80s…

Russians are easier… front line had BM22… from about 79 onwards… allies got crappy BM12 or 17.

For US 120mm… I don't think the 827 was ever deployed. The 829 went all the way till right before the gulf war.
(then you got the A1-aka-silver bullet).
Hope this helps…

Joe Collins

From (mostly) Jane's Main Battle Tanks, 2nd edition, 1986;

Challenger 1 and Chieftain, L11A5 120mm rifled gun firing L15A4 APDS-T, L20A1 DS-T, L31 HESH, and L23 APFSDS introduced 1985-1986, kinetic rounds above are tungsten. The L26 DU round was deployed in '91. The 105mm L52 APDS and L64 APFSDS-T in service in the mid 1980s appear to be tungsten.

US 120mm M827 APFSDS-T DU round was in service in 1983. The M829 round was classified as the standard combat round in 1985 (guessing it wasn't deployed until late in the year or 1986).
US M733 APFSDS-DU round was in service in 1985 in 105mm armed US tanks.
US M833 105mm DU round was introduced in 1983 and replaced in 1991 for M60 and M1 use.

West German 120mm DM-13 APFSDS-T had a tungsten penetrator. On line, I am finding info stating that the DM13 is the same as the US M829, but Jane's states the German version used a multi-piece tungsten rod, and the US used a single piece DU rod, with the rest of the round being the same. The DM-13 with tungsten appears to have been introduced in service with first Leo 2s in late 1979. Not seeing any mention of DU in WG service through 1986.

My understanding is that the US DU rounds went into service earlier as a cost saving measure, as the DU rod was almost as good as the tungsten, and a lot cheaper due to availability of DU in the US.

Hope this is of some help.

Oh well, too late.

Sovs got BM32 in 87-88 with the big ramp up in T80s.

It was designed to fight the M1A1HA…

So…they did have DU in late 80s.

BM29 was developed and available in 83… but never deployed as far as I can tell. It wasn't monobloc… just a DU slug within a tungsten body. Probably didn't add that much killing power.

Joe Collins

Thanks for all the info on the various specific rounds.

I really appreciate it.

Don't know much about specific ammo for the guns, so am learning a lot.

Well, let me tell you what my tanks carried starting in 1981 thru 1984 in Germany. We had 392a2 in our M60a1's for our sabot ammo. After we received the M60a3 TTS in the winter of 1981 the sabot ammunition was changed to 735 sometime during 1982 and upgraded in 1983 to 774. We did not keep the 735 on the tanks long, maybe 6 months.

We also carried 456a2 HEAT and two rounds of 416 (WP)

Amazing how my post squares with Major Mikes! It is almost like he was one of my sources!

LOL…

Joe Collins