Tango01 | 25 Jul 2016 11:37 a.m. PST |
Some Interesting points here… link Amicalement Armand |
donlowry | 25 Jul 2016 12:06 p.m. PST |
Grant would not have put Sherman in charge of the Army of the James because he thought he was essential in the West. Nor could he have changed the commander of the Army of the James, because Butler was too powerful politically and would not have given it up unless given some even more important position. Grant had hoped that Butler would stay at his headquarters and let Baldy Smith run the field army, but Butler wanted the glory for himself and insisted on commanding in person. (Though I doubt if Smith would have done a whole lot better than Butler, given how he did as corps commander. He could have taken Petersburg had he been more bold, but then he had just seen what troops behind fortifications could do to an assault at Cold Harbor, so it's hard to blame him for being cautious.) However, I wonder what would have happened had Grant left Meade in charge of the AotP once it got to Spottsylvania, gotten on a steamboat, and gone down the Chesapeake and up the James to look over Butler's shoulder for a while instead of Meade's. However, Burnside was senior to Meade, so I guess he would have been in charge had Grant done that. (Later Burnside agreed to serve under Meade, but I think it took a special order from Lincoln to make it official.) |
ColCampbell | 25 Jul 2016 1:39 p.m. PST |
Also Grant would never had put Thomas in charge since he didn't like Thomas at all. But of course if he had then "The Rock" would have destroyed the Army of Tennessee at the very start of the campaign and the rest would have been a cakewalk – no slogging through northwest Georgia, no Kennesaw Ridge, no Hood' counter-strike at Franklin – just marching to Atlanta and then to the sea, either Mobile or Savannah or both. Jim (and yes, I am a Thomas fan) |
Old Contemptibles | 25 Jul 2016 2:58 p.m. PST |
Perhaps that last charge at Cold Harbor. In the initial charge, which had lasted less than 10 minutes, nearly 7,000 Union soldiers had been killed or wounded. Not until World War I would an army suffer such a high casualty rate. Grant, the Union's recently appointed general-in-chief, would one day write in his memoirs, "I regret this assault more than any one I have ever ordered." |
Who asked this joker | 25 Jul 2016 3:05 p.m. PST |
Perhaps that last charge at Cold Harbor. BINGO! |
Generalstoner49 | 25 Jul 2016 6:46 p.m. PST |
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Bill N | 25 Jul 2016 8:48 p.m. PST |
Am I the only one who has trouble with the argument that "The war in the west was for all practicable purposes was over and the union had won"? The U.S. victory in the west was the result of things Sherman did right and things the Confederates did wrong. Change things around and perhaps you might have Confederate forces sitting in Nashville by the fall. The potential for problems were there, starting with a possible dispute over who got to command what. |
AussieAndy | 26 Jul 2016 7:31 a.m. PST |
If Grant had pushed on fast and hard on the first day of the Wilderness Campaign, there may not have been a Cold Harbour and the war may have been over in 1864. Grant was initially diffident about micro-managing the Army of the Potomac, but the opportunities that were wasted on that day were lost forever. I do agree that it is flabbergasting how little the Army of the James achieved. Again, with better leadership, the war might have ended in 1864. |
donlowry | 26 Jul 2016 8:23 a.m. PST |
I don't know why everyone thinks Grant didn't like Thomas. I have seen no evidence of it. When trying to prompt Thomas to attack Hood at Nashville, he told him, "I have as much confidence in you to fight a battle as anyone," or words very close to that -- not faint praise. (he added, "but its seems to me that you have been slow." Which was perhaps unfair, but probably it did seem that way at a distance; and Thomas was habitually slow, which even his friend Sherman complained about.) |
Who asked this joker | 26 Jul 2016 9:20 a.m. PST |
Thomas was not unlike Meade. Slow. Deliberate. Methodical. Basically, he is the guy that won't lose the fight. He would force the other side to win. Of course, on the flip side, you don't get many spectacular victories either. |
Ottoathome | 26 Jul 2016 12:32 p.m. PST |
Dear Don I agree on both your points. The charge at Cold Harbor might have been a disaster, but it was not a critical disaster. |
grahambeyrout | 26 Jul 2016 2:42 p.m. PST |
Cold Harbor – Not so much the charge, but leaving his wounded to die in front of the confederate lines simply because he would not admit that Lee had defeated him and ask for a truce. |
avidgamer | 27 Jul 2016 9:39 a.m. PST |
"I do agree that it is flabbergasting how little the Army of the James achieved. Again, with better leadership, the war might have ended in 1864." That was not an option for Grant, it was a political decision made by Lincoln. He had to keep Butler in charge until AFTER the election. |
donlowry | 29 Jul 2016 10:38 a.m. PST |
Thomas was not unlike Meade. Slow. Deliberate. Methodical. Basically, he is the guy that won't lose the fight. He would force the other side to win. Of course, on the flip side, you don't get many spectacular victories either. Yep. Excellent on defense, not so great on offense. Compare his pursuit of Hood after Nashville with Grant's pursuit of Lee's retreat from Richmond/Petersburg (and the latter had not taken nearly the losses that Hood had already taken). Sure, Thomas gave Hood a real thrashing at Nashville, but only after Schofield and Wilson got him to change his plan from a frontal assault. |