"Shooting rampage in Munich: At least 10 dead in..." Topic

… shopping center …

"Police walks towards a shopping mall amid a shooting on July 22, 2016 in Munich … Police respond to shooting spree in Munich shopping mall…."
More here
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German time… who is next?

Amicalement
Armand

Very grim and my condolences to those affected.

Doesn't seem to fit the pattern of recent tragedies though.

It seems the gunman is of Iranian heritage which probably make shim a Shi'a and hence exceptionally unlikely to be a supporter of Daesh.

And he had a furious argument with an onlooker insisting he was German.

So there could be a different underlying cause for him going postal.

No IS or islamic connection at all so far according to the latest press conference by the Bavarian police. Rather a young man born and raised in Munich with a history of mental problems and an obsession with spree killings ("Amokläufe" as the Germans call them) and had intensly studied both books and videos of other spree killings/mass shootings before the attack.

There have been other incidents here in Germany, but not as horrific as this one.(Examples: Rapes around Wiesbaden; beatings around Dresden and clashes between Turkish and Kurd populations, all involving either immigrants or right wing extremests.)Germany has lost track of thousands of immigrants- they simply do not know where they are or even if they remain in their country. Truth seems to be that the German Government wants to play down these incidents- a real world form of "Move along…nothing to see here"…..

i had the same feeling you had…i suspect Germany authorities will continue to downplay everything..as they did in Cologne , until faced by unespected number of official complaints by the victims. France authorities did the same by downplaying and forbidding to recognice the attacks and agressions after and during European Football Championship as , for most part, banlieu extremist planned violence…with the result to let again people totally unprepared when Nice criminals struck.

What happened in Germany on New Years Eve was much more widespread than originally reported:

"Authorities now think that on New Year's Eve, more than 1,200 women were sexually assaulted in various German cities, including more than 600 in Cologne and about 400 in Hamburg.

More than 2,000 men were allegedly involved, and 120 suspects — about half of them foreign nationals who had only recently arrived in Germany — have been identified.

Only four have been convicted, but more trials are underway.

On Thursday, a court in Cologne sentenced two men in the New Year's Eve assaults. Hussein A., a 21-year-old Iraqi, and Hassan T., a 26-year-old Algerian, were handed suspended one-year sentences. Both arrived in Germany in the past two years, a court spokesman said. He declined to specify whether the two had sought asylum." Washington Post

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Yep this gunman was an German nationalist (despite also being Iranian).

Just goes to show that there are lots of nutters of all sort of flavours out there.

Whereas Italwars will continue to describe this as part of the 'Islamic conspiracy' he seems to believe in, it seems this particular fruitcake wa sa fan of Andreas Brevik…

Which is kinda odd given his ethnicity, but then there are, I believe, Israeli Nazis.

Go figure.

24/7 Medía cycle, plus psychotropic drug "treatment", plus despair, plus God knows what else, and you have the modern grab for fame encouraged by said-Medía, and don't discount the "training" that the entertainment industry provides in endless violence glorifying movies. Stir in a layer of potent religious ideology gone bad, and anything is possible anywhere from apparently anyone….

..Bangorstu…always obsessed to defend what is indefensible …

Nope, not a murderour attack by a radical Muslim, resulting in the death of 9 innocent people, and many more wounded……..

Yea, right!

A pity the Nazi story got killed so quickly, since that would have been rather convenient.

No terrorist attack here. Nothing to see. Move along.

Man, the authorities and the media are really pushing the envelope at splitting hairs, aren't they?

Yes, it appears the shooter was a German-Iranian with dual citizenship. So it seems he may have been just deranged. And had nothing really to do with islamic terrorism.

And to add to that line of thinking. Daesh and AQ are Sunni and this shooter being Iranian, means he's from a Shia dominated nation. As 90+% in Iran are Shia. So until the Germans in their ongoing investigation turns up otherwise. It is just another tragic mass murder incident. Which as we call all agree is very sad, etc.

I think the big thing is the Germans are trying to find out is where and how did he get a weapon ? Illegal or otherwise ? The Germans are not known for lacks gun control laws … or any other laws for that matter.

But as pointed out, the Media is filling up the "air waves" with this tragic story. In between another tragic story … which if I go any further Commissar Bill with DH me for sure !

If a muslim gets a speeding ticket, does that count as a religious extremist?

are they many difference between Muslim extremist and Nazi?..in my opinion not many..and not only in methods but also for the political doctrine
if the two thing mix together….as some examples in history

The Germans are not known for lack gun control but , recently, for lack of furnishing details on the event…same as other countries

How many people does one have to kill, before they're labeled a radical, or extremist?

One, two, nine, ten, 50, 100+?

Does it really matter if he was a member of ISIS, AQ, or another Muslim sect?

He's a Muslim "lunatic" (do you like that label better?) who carried out a horrific attack, killing 9 innocent people (I assume they were innocent – shall we quibble about that too? Perhaps they had it coming to them, since we know sometimes children don't behave as we wish), and wounded 21 others, according to last night's count.

Just another fast-food customer pushed over the edge, and acting out, since he didn't get the Happy Meal toy he wanted, or perhaps his fries were cold.

Aristonicus good intel … I have thought there was more "preps" than the German gov't wanted to admit. As they welcomed the million or so moslem refugees with open arms. A similar event happened in Sweden if the reports are true. But again, whether some like it or not … I see we might have a clash of cultures here.

And as we all know it's bad manners if you are invited over for dinner. And assault the families' teenage daughter … maybe it's different in Syria, etc. ? But I doubt it …

And again, and I'm sure some will disagree. Why are all these military age male refugees not fighting to eliminate the enemies destroying their countries' ? Now I know there is many reasons that some will come up with. But again, it makes me question their entire reason why they are taking refuge ? Instead of fighting. They are not the proverbial "women and children" …

If a muslim gets a speeding ticket, does that count as a religious extremist?

Depends where he gets the ticket … Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan or Europe ? I know from experience, those German Polizi are pretty tough !

Nah, Legion, this, according to some, is just your ordinary, everyday, run of the mill, slaughter and wounding of innocents (were they innocent?).

Of course …
Now I saw on CNN, he was seeing shrink … so there is that. But a lot of people see shrinks and don't go on shooting sprees.
At the VA, they always ask if you are homicidal or suicidal. I say, I'm not at all suicidal, but if got a list for the other option. They just send me to the pharmacy for more meds ! LOL !

while ISIS is still celebrating the murders (quite amazing) …it seems that the fatalities where 9 so far, three were Kosovars and three were Turks, probably all Muslims…
Probably the German authorities will officially obscure also those unconfirmed infos..because to send a message that means "yes is a religion war all over the world or , in any case, a war between the West and Islam" is not their choosen strategy..but the the Vichy type "attentisme " policy continue …and the acts of wars increase

It would seem that the US media is keeping you all badly informed about what Europe is actually like. For example, the reported 'huge increase' in rapes in Sweden comes directly after the way sex crimes are categorised was changed.

It's also been widely reported that home grown right wing extremists in the US are a bigger threat than 'Islamists' (They have certainly killed more people in the last 15 years, and have attempted to obtain a dirty bomb), but keep right on believing.

And why would you be surprised that an admirer of Breivik would prefer to shoot 'minorities' while yelling he was German?

It's also been widely reported that home grown right wing extremists in the US are a bigger threat than 'Islamists' (They have certainly killed more people in the last 15 years, and have attempted to obtain a dirty bomb), but keep right on believing.

LEOs, the FBI etc., are well aware of that. They just are another possible threat that needs to be watched and be prepared to stop them. If need be.

Just like an islamist terrorist attack. Whether you are killed by a White Right Wing nut job or a radicalized islamists nut job … you're still dead …

I think the populace as a whole needs to get a grip. Yes the authorities need to keep an aggressive and sensible focus on extremists but the simple facts are that automobile accidents kill an exponentially larger number of citizens in all the Western countries than every flavor of (Islam, Christianity, Right and Left plus just your garden variety loon). The risk statistically to the average citizen in the West of dying from a terrorist is still less than death by auto or in the US, lightning.

No, surely not a global war. Just random events, like that "little" attack in Afghanistan today, that's killed and wounded several hundred people.

ISIS is claiming responsibility for that one, but it could just be groupies acting out, or a few people who went off their meds.

I pointed that out before here on another threat. There is a lot of ways to die in the USA.
Car & bike accidents
Tobacco
Alcohol
Drugs
Fast Food
Medical Malpractice
Etc., etc.,

But the intellectual academics can't find a way to say we are all racists, etc., if you look at it the way as we do …

Given American spree killers are not referred to as 'Christian terrorists', I fail to see how one deranged teenager gets labelled as 'another Muslim extremist' given he has nothing in common with any of the Islamic terror we've been suffering.

This particular outrage has nothing to do with his religion (if any) because, as Legion pointed out, he's probably Shi'a. And the shi'a aren't attacking the West…

This has far more to do with the fact he was a spree-killing obsessed teenager with mental problems.

This one goes in the folder along with American school shootings, not Nice. Or the attack by the Afghan a few days before.

Though doubtless some will se eif differently, twisting facts to suit their own agendas.

Bangorstu, the reason none have been labelled that is because there hasn't been any. Only radical islamists and racists.

But if there were any, I think labelling them as "radical Christian extremists" would be fair and accurate. It would serve to differentiate the radicals from peaceful mainstream majority.

It is still early, we don't know all the facts yet about Munich. Terrorist or crazy kid, perhaps both. If we use the Nice massacre as an example, it was immediately released that the truck driver acted alone… but now there has been 5 arrested as conspirators and info that this attack took one year to plan. Let's wait for the facts.

cw … stu knows all about the USA … he's never been here but he watches the news. A lot … So we must all be white right wing Christian racists gun totting cowboys who like nothing better that to shoot and kill … don't you know ?

And just a note stu … the USA is maybe 1% moslem and about 70+% Christian. So do the math … statically Christian kill more people than moslems in the US. Because there are more Christians than moslems. It's basic math …

…and we live in a police state!

Of course ! And stu I know I posted this before in our conversations … save it and read over it.

Religion in the United States (2014 survey – Pew Forum)

Protestant (46.5%)

Catholic (20.8%)

Mormon (1.6%)

Other Christian (1.7%)

Judaism (1.9%)

Islam (0.9%)

Hinduism (0.7%)

Buddhism (0.7%)

Other religions (1.8%)

Unaffiliated (22.8%)

Not stated (0.6%)

And just for the sake of clarity … in my almost 6 decades of life here. I've never heard of a terrorist attack in the US by :

Mormons

Amish

Jewish

Wiccan

Hindus

Buddhist

So if there is an Islamic terrorist attack … it's kind of a big deal as they are such a small percentage of the total population. Or even here on visas, etc., …

The point is that so many people are trying to explain these events as uniquely Muslim and indicitive of the whole religion, while downplaying every similar act by Christians or a member of the political right as "lone wolves". See this reluctance to label any bombing or shooting spree by a Christian as being caused by radicalism despite the bare facts of many of the cases.

All to gin up more hate towards Muslims and immigrants, which you have to agree is very counter productive.

It should also be noted that there have been attacks against Hindus, Sikhs, and others because of the constant drum beats against Islam.

Sigh…. my point was spectacularly missed by some it seems.

It was that because a person of faith commits a crime doesn't mean the faith was responsible.

Americans shooting up schools are not referred to as Christian terrorists because they're not killing people due to their religion.

Same here. Whether he was a Muslim or not is irrelevant. He was just a crazy loon with a gun.

But if he is labled as a Muslim terrorist then America has a problem with Christian terror…

and we don't even know if he was really seeing himself as a Muslim. I have a lot of friends of Muslim origin that are atheist, even if they will still be referred by other people as Muslim because of their name/origin.

If a muslim gets a speeding ticket, does that count as a religious extremist?

Only if they were going extremely fast.

Do we have a phrase that sums up the need to see Islamic conspiracies everywhere? Something like "Reds under the bed" ?

Ochoin, look at the enormous list:

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Islamist_terrorist_attacks

Not every Muslim is a Terrorist, but nearly every Terrorist is Muslim. Until that is admitted to there will never be pressure to really stop them. Internal or external to Islam.

Stu,

I didn't miss your point, but as I said, let's wait for the facts to come out.

Like my example, the Nice truck murderer, people tried to quickly state that this was a solo attack, but facts are coming out that he had conspirators (5) and that this attack was well planned over the course of one year.

Let's wait before calling him anything. I certainly didn't label him anything. You definitely have no more facts than I do.

Indications are that these attacks in Germany, one by a 17 year old on a train and the other by a mentally ill 18-year old at a shopping mall, are lone wolf attacks whose ties with ISIS are questionable at best. The German-Iranian national responsible for the mall shooting is not linked to ISIS and was motivated by the mass shooting in Norway by right-wing extremist Anders Breivik five years ago:

link

We're giving ISIS and Islamic extremism more credit than they deserve.

Only Warlock…not even close.

The Unabomber wasn't a Muslim. Not are the IRE, ETA the Tamil Tigers, Andreas Breivik or Timothy McVeigh.

Warlock: "Not every Muslim is a Terrorist, but nearly every Terrorist is Muslim."

Where's the list of Christian Terrorism? Nationalist Terrorism? Or even misc. causes like the Dallas shootings? The answer is we don't make lists of those because they don't serve the cultural narrative that Muslims are against us.

Hell, we don't list most of those incidents as terrorism simply because they're not committed by Muslims.

wolfgangbrooks

It should also be noted that there have been attacks against Hindus, Sikhs, and others because of the constant drum beats against Islam.

In the US ? Yes, but it has been very, wery few. The FBI stats say something like over 50% of the hate crimes in the USA is against those if the Jewish faith.
And only about 16% against moslems.

And there has not been one Jewish terrorist attack in the USA, AFAIK ?

We're giving ISIS and Islamic extremism more credit than they deserve.

In this case it appears this German-Iranian was just deranged. Deranged does not have a specific religion … it's pretty much equal opportunity.

With all the Daesh AQ, BH, AS, etc. terrorism going on worldwide. It's too easy to point fingers, etc., … E.g. Daesh just claimed the large attack in Kabul that happened today. On a peaceful demonstration about what I don't know. Regardless this is the first Daesh terrorist large casualty inflicting attack in that country. On unarmed demonstrators … of course … With probably many more to come.

So with Turkey and Nice, recent terrorist attacks and all those before that. Plus now Daesh's attack in Kabul … the "all the usual suspects" paradigm takes effect.

As far as Munich, the Germans are being prudent and still investigating. It's more about where and how he got the weapon & ammo. Than what his religion was.

However, a few days ago a male Afghani refugee attacked 4 people on a train in Germany. With an axe. And he had made clear it was in the name of islam. So that leads some to be looking in what they think is all the right places – Radicalized islam …

Only if they were going extremely fast.

In a red car …

cultural narrative that Muslims are against us.

Well with Iran chatting Death to America often. And videos and recordings that state similar from other radical moslem groups. Plus the beheading vidoes which show Christians being executed. Even UBL Jr. just made a recording saying he was going to get revenge because the US killed his father. So it may be not to far a strength for some to think that at least some moslems are against us.

@ Only Warlock

Seeing you asked:

link

But not all of them, or most of them, or a majority, or even a minority. It's also not hard to understand why a number of people in the Middle East aren't on our side given how often we interfere with their governments, bomb their countries, stage military occupations, and support a certain unnamed country that treats it's natives about as well as we did the indians.

(edit: Oh and we are allies of other nations that are almost as bad to their people as ISIS.)

It's kinda surprising they aren't angrier with us, eh? Most Iranians seem not to have a problem with Americans, but America itself, can't say I blame them.

Also not really defending Islam exclusively, I think all religions and ideologies should be considered with suspicion if not outright hostility. But I really really can't stand right-wing spin.

The German-Iranian national responsible for the mall shooting is not linked to ISIS and was motivated by the mass shooting in Norway by right-wing extremist Anders Breivik five years ago:

There's not much evidence this kid was a Breivik admirer. That's not even what the story you linked to says:

"Evidence at his home suggested a general interest in mass shootings; the Munich attack came on the fifth anniversary of the mass shooting in Norway by right-wing extremist Anders Breivik, an "obvious link" that is being investigated by police."

You and a lot of people are riding this sketchy 'obvious link' harder than it merits. One witness reports the kid shouted "I am a German!" Another witness, herself a Muslim, claims he shouted "Allahu ackbar!" as he fired.

I'm waiting to learn more.

Can't recall the last time a Christian mass murderer yelled he was doing it in the name of God, or Jesus, as he went on a killing spree.

Many Muslims do seem to be inspired by, and/or to do their killing for Allah, hence their cries of "Allahu Akbar", as the Muslim woman confirmed, just before the Munich attacker started shooting children in McDonald's.

Also, ISIS and AQ have been calling for "their people", and/or "followers" to conduct attacks in American establishments in Europe to send a message, just like the 9/11 hijackers did when using American Airlines for their attacks.

They've also beseeched their followers to kill children, since they believe those cause the deepest and most enduring pain to their families, and survivors.

Seems to me the guy's following the crazed, Islamic radical, jihadi playbook to a "T", despite all the spin by others to the contrary, trying to deny that.

For the record, I personally believe all the Islamic radicals who conduct these attacks, and suicide bombings are mentally unstable, and not in their right minds, e.g. raving, crazed, blood-thirsty lunatics with a death wish, since they're unhappy with their pitiful lives.

It will be interesting to see who helped him get the weapons and ammo, assuming that doesn't get covered up, or misreported by the German authorities, who just want this story to go away, so they can continue with their misguided, dangerous policies.

Radical Islam is the greatest danger to other Muslims. For every non-Muslim killed, literally hundreds of innocent Muslims have died at the hands of Daesh, AQ, Hezbollah etc. They are a barbaric annoyance to the rest of the world from a statistical standpoint, irritating but strategically harmless. To their fellow co-religionists they are a plague needing excision.

Equally true is the fact that Christian terrorists such as the IRA, Tim McVeigh and assorted anti-government whacks, Eric Robert Rudoplh and the violent Christian anti-abortion drop cases (such as The Colorado Springs baby saver winner from last year)have managed to kill and injure almost exclusively Christians, including the Christian claiming cult types such as Jim Jones and David Koresh have done a consistent job of spinning off fringe whackos although to be fair, they are better at self-destruction. (Special shout out to Heavens Gate! Any cult that can convince the faithful that God's message to the Earth is cut your nuts off and meet me behind the comet is the leader in the clubhouse for making the apocalypse hilarious.)

Even Judaism has suffered from internal radicalism such as the death of , IIRC Peres at the hands of a Jewish extremist settler.

Militant Hinduism is a curse generally restricted to India but it exists as well.

No one religion has a market on poisonous idiocy. A measureable, quantifiable percentage of any population is stupid. A measureable quantifiable percentage is mentally unstable. Expose that part of the venn diagram to revealed truth and voila, a dangerous subset is formed.

There's not much evidence this kid was a Breivik admirer.

German police say different. He had a lot of clippings about the guy and used his picture as a screen saver.

Can't recall the last time a Christian mass murderer yelled he was doing it in the name of God, or Jesus, as he went on a killing spree.

Nor did the bloke in Nice…

as the Muslim woman confirmed, just before the Munich attacker started shooting children in McDonald's.

Given that's not been reported in any European media I've seen, I doubt that.

Ther eis exactly zero evidence this guy was anything other than a crzed teen. Mako, you've yet to provide any evidence to contravene the German police's evidence.

you seem to think that an Iranian Sh'ia is likely to be an ISIS follower… that speaks volumes about you to be honest.

As for the gun, handguns are legal in German, so no need of a conspiracy there either.

What HAS been reported is he was targetting young Turks, because those were the people who bullied him at school…

As for Christian terrorists in the USA – aren't there bombings and shootings aimed at abortion clinics?

As for the gun, handguns are legal in German, so no need of a conspiracy there either.

Die Polizei say this kid's handgun was very illegal, like with the serial number filed off. They're investigating where he got it.

Fair enough. On reflection I'd hope it would be difficult for a troubled teen to get hold of a weapon…