"Which tanks were in use by subunits of 3SA in 1985?" Topic

Does anyone know of a good resource for the tanks used by the subunits of 3rd Shock Army in 1985? Am looking to model the individual units, so I'd like something that gives numbers and subtype (eg Regiment X had 2 Bttn T64BV, 1 Bttn T80A, rather than "they had T64s and T80s")

Thanks in advance!

Try checking this reference, which is superb, and has lots of info from the end of the Cold War.

ww2.dk/new/army/gkv/gsfg.htm

Some stuff for a bit earlier too.

Best reference I've seen on-line.

Looks like standard T-80s (perhaps better, but if so, not identified), and a mix of BMP-1s and BMP-2s for the tank division.

Didn't check on BTRs for them, but given some of the others I looked at, they appear to be primarily BTR-60PBs.

T-80BV would have been starting to filter through in numbers by 1985. Some formations still using T-64's likely would remain. By 1986 entirely T-80's.

As to specific unit breakdowns, good luck finding a source in English. 3rd SA would be using the same TO&E as the rest of GSFG. Only difference would be some armies still used the T-64 in the 80's (i.e; 2GTA) while others had T-80's (3SA, 8GA).

So just go with either the MicroMark lists from Wargamevault, or, my first preference, find a copy of the 1991 edition of US Army FM-2-3 The Soviet Army, Troops, Organization and Equipment. Can generally be had relatively cheap on eBay or Amazon. It is IMHO, along with Weapons and Tactics of the Soviet Army by Isby (bit more expensive), the best source for Soviet TO&E's in the 80's.

auction

Have to disagree there Cold, 3SA did not start the change over until late 87/88 and was not fully equipped with T-80 until the change from GSFG to WGF.

In the early-mid 80s 1GTA and 8GA moved to T-80, 3SA was receiving T-64B (ERA) Somewhere I had one of the ERA boxes nicked from a 3SA T-64B in 86. The change over was done regiment by regiment signified by the arrival of Kraz or Kamaz tanker trucks, the T-64s would be lined up and moved to a railhead, to be replaced by incoming T-80s.

Tally Ho!

Hmmm, excellent info Nick.

What type of ERA was that, e.g. Kontakt-1, of Kontakt-5?

The references I provided were for the very end of the Cold War, and slightly after, so it appears they accelerated their changeover at the very end of the Cold War period.

In the last day or so, ran across some antics (history report) of guys sneaking around in East Germany, taking pics of the latest Soviet armor, even from the interiors of them in some cases, and gouging out metal shavings from the glacis and turret fronts as well. Very interesting, and harrowing tales.

Apparently, one man lost his life over that, since supposedly they figured out what he'd done, and were on the watch for him, so shot him in cold blood later, and kept his buddies and everyone else from rendering aid to him.

Just goes to serve as a reminder of the heroic deeds of some during the Cold War, and the fact that it was a more dangerous business and time than many now are aware of.

Yes, the military missions such as Brixmis. The chap who died was American. Those of us based in BAOR often went to Berlin to conduct Flag Tours in East Berlin, always a hoot!!

Tally Ho!

As well as Brixmis there was Soxmis, doing the same to NATO. They were a bit more heavy handed. To a stage where it was almost as if they wanted us to know what they had done.

Quite often the harassments were tit for tat on the other side, whenever a Soxmis car had been detained by an over enthusiastic driver there would be a detention in the east, usually a heavy Kraz or similar smashing into a car!

Tally Ho!

Not just harassment, they on occasions " borrowed" equipment that we had left in position. It would turn up anything up to a year later, often no where near where it had been taken from, having clearly been dismantled and reassembled.

Mako, Kontact-1,

Tally Ho!

A site for the USMLM mission. They recently held a memorial service for Major Nicholson who was shot by the Soviet sentry.

usmlm.us

Thanks, Nick.

Seems as if the real trick is to avoid hitting the ERA, whenever possible, since it doesn't provide total coverage.

Nick,
Good info, you would know better than my source material. What I had was a full change-over by 1986 (maybe into early '87). Makes sense though, since I had thought by the early to mid 80's the T-80 was primarily located in the southern armies of GSFG opposite the Fulda and Hof Gaps, while the central and northern army groups had T-64's mostly until the end.

My understanding is that the units of 3SA and the other major units facing Northag were all fully equipped with T64A and B variants by the early 1980s.

At this time though the major units facing CENTAG (1GTA, 8GTA etc) were NOT yet fully converted from T62 to T64.

However, after T64 production ended, it was CENTAG facing units which first began to receive the new T80B (9TD to begin with) from 1983-4 onwards, progressively squeezing the T62 out of the inventory. But this process took a few years to complete.

T80s began to appear in 3SA etc in the late 1980s and according to the CFE figures were in a majority by 1990.

So- in 1985 I think 3SA was pretty much exclusively equipped with T64 variants. Further South though, there could in 1985 be a much more interesting mix, with a diminishing number of T62s, and increasing number of T80s, and a fair wedge of T64s.

This is what Cold Warrior mentioned, except free:

PDF link

CW, otherwise we would have been talking rubbish to the troops at the time! 3SA, 1GTA and 20GA changed in 89, although 3SA may have been 88, it was a while ago and in 88 my focus was the Hong Kong border and Ned Kelly's Bar in Kowloon!

Tally Ho!

Thanks all for responses! So to summarise, would I be right in saying that there isn't currently a (publicly available) Order of Battle for GSFG down to battalion, but using a mix of T64 and T80 variants wouldn't be called out as obviously incorrect. Quick follow-up question – would there have been any T62's still hanging around in 1985 (in the ITBs for ex? – The OOB link provided suggests 12th Guards went from T62 directly to T80 in 1990?)

I suspect some of those might still be around in the Motor Rifle units, especially for the second-string ones to follow on after the initial attacks by the better equipped ones.

IIRC, the change over from those started in the early 1980s (want to say 1982, or so).

From everything i have read, including first hand Russian accounts (hours upon hours spent looking at Russian veterans forums online, broken down by unit in GSFG, including pictures and guys reminiscing about specific instances), i have found not a shred of evidence indicating any T-64s in 1GTA or 8GA. Guys in these 2 armies remember very specifically when they turned in their T-62s for T-80s.

The first unit in the southern armies i found to receive them was 31st ITB of 27GMRD in late 1982, USMLM sightings corroborate this.

The other units converted gradually over the mid 80s. I would figure there were still significant numbers of T-62s, particularly in the MRRs in 1985 (again talking southern armies here)

This comment might be a bit too late to add usefully to the discussion, but I can only recall 3SA having T-64 variants whilst I was sat in W Germany from Jan '87 to Dec '88. The big change that we were tracking was the introduction and then widespread fielding of T-64B. By the time I left 4 (Armd) Div, Tk Bns of 3SA seemed to have stabilised at 1/3 T-64B to 2/3 T-64A. We believed the tactic would be for the T-64B to stand-off and use their AT-8 missiles in 'overwatch' whilst their ERA protected them from our long-range HEAT capabilities. Whether that would actually work in practice, bearing in mind how few areas offered suitable long-range LoS opportunities within the complex terrain of industrialised northern West Germany, is an interesting question.

All good stuff Cambria, thanks! SO when you say T64B – would those all have been T64BV, or a mix? (All with ERA or not)

Sorry, yes – T-64B with ERA. (Is T-64BV the correct designation? Back in '87/'88 I think we just called them "T-64B with ERA"!) I don't seem to recall significant numbers of T-64 without ERA, but it's getting to be ancient history now!

Thinking about how the 1/3 T-64 with ERA were distributed, I think it was 1 coy per Bn, but perhaps Nick(insomerset) can clarify, he's a bit of an ORBAT guru :-)

Sorry, the above should say "I don't recall significant numbers of T-64B without ERA", not "T-64 without ERA". I don't recall any of the T-64A being retro-fitted with ERA.

In the middle of the 1980s it all looked like this:

3rd Army combined arms (3-я общевойсковая армия):
7th guard TD – T-64B
10th guard TD – 364 T-80B
12th guard TD – T-64 (Probably T-64B)
47th guard TD – 322 T-64 (mainly T-64A (with "Tucha" smoke mortars) and T-64B)

If I understand the T64 service variants correctly, there were three main ones in the mid-1980s- each with some sub-variants and modifications.

- The T64A.
- The T64B with improved fire control and capable of firing the Kobra (SONGSTER) missile. Very expensive.
- The T64B1 again with improved fire control but without the Kobra capability.

All three as factory built had the same gun, engine and armour fit.

But all three had 'V' (ERA equipped) variants, and some examples of all three types were given additional glacis armour when they were given factory rebuilds in the course of their lives. So there were probably about a dozen subvariants in service together all told- T64A, B and B1 each with a mix of- no extra armour, ERA, extra glacis armour, ERA AND extra glacis armour…..

I think most of the T64Bs would have been the non-Kobra B1 variant, although in peacetime I understand the missile sighting box was often left off the B model in peacetime service, making them difficult to tell apart at a distance.

Yes, something like this is. Especially because many tanks underwent major repairs, after which they can hardly be referred to just do some modifications – some parts were available, and these have been installed on them. In addition to all the tanks are constantly being upgraded. The result is that the tanks more or less the same. That is to say "any mess in the army should be uniformly." This incidentally also applies to most of Soviet tanks.

Here – a sample list of modifications, though in Russian, but in principle it is clear.

link

That list of variants is very useful – thanks – especially with the line drawings.

"But using a mix of T64 and T80 variants wouldn't be called out as obviously incorrect."

Not within the same army though, until the later 80s as the replacement program took place.

It would be interesting to see the data for the 10GTD having T-80 in the mid 80s,

Tally Ho!

UsmanK, when exactly in the "middle of the 1980s" are referring to? The reports I read in '87/88 strongly supported the majority of tank regts within 3SA having a mix of T-64A and T-64B (of whatever variants) by 1988. When T-64B arrived in 3SA (1987?), it was not seen to replace all the T-64A wholesale within a Division before being fielded into another. So, without knowing what date you're talking about (or the source), it's very difficult to put the information into context.

And the tanks of the same type, as a rule, and not replaced. It would be too expensive. They simply adjusted to approximately one standard (Redistribution is the practice in the Soviet and the Russian Army).
According to Vasily Chobitok * (it is considered one of the main enthusiasts of T-64 at the moment), by 1981 newly produced T-64A and T-64B were unified at 95%. Ie, it had an average of the same tanks. In addition, the unit must be held old tanks overhaul, in which the tank, which is formally known as the T-64A was brought up to the standard T-64B and above.

Supply T-64B in GSVG began in 1982, and by the 1985 1/3 T-64 in GSVG is T-64B (in 3rd Army – one T-64B company per tank battalion), but by 1985 the T-64 are obsolete (in addition, they were terribly unreliable, especially their chassis), and in the GSVG not sent – they withdrew from there, to replacing the T -80 (see link – there is a list of parts where the T-64 replaced the T-80, as well as information about how to rearm GSVG) .

* Saenko MV, Chobitok VV Main battle tank T-64. – M .: OOO "Publishing Center" Eksprint ", 2002.

By the way, here there are a few photos of the T-64 pereiod 1981-1988 GG in tank div. of 3rd Army:
7 TD:
link

TD 47:
link

It turns out (1985):
7 TD: 328 T-64 (T-64B 1/3, 2/3 T-64A)
10 TD: a mixture of T-80 and T-64 (238 pcs.)
12 TD: 328 T-64 (T-64B 1/3, 2/3 T-64A)
47 TD: 328 T-64 (T-64B 1/3, 2/3 T-64A)

That is excellent info, UsmanK.

Thank you for sharing that.

What was unreliable on the chassis, e.g. the engine, the bogies, tracks, etc., and any details on what percentage might be available, and/or not working at any given time, e.g. 50%, 67%, serviceable, etc.?

I'm especially interested in what would make them more unreliable than the T-72s and T-80s.

Hello, Mako11!

At the T-64 was a very capricious and unreliable engine. The most characteristic of the engine was overheating and wear due to dust ( in the instructions to the tank, of course, was written in a different way, but the reality turned out to be spit on the instructions ) . Appropriately, when moving a large number of tanks, raising a huge cloud of dust, the engine could easily "die". For example here ( link ) described what happened to the T-64A, when it is not a company or a battalion went on the field and the whole division. As a result, dozens of motors all have failed because of the dust.
In addition, a more unpleasant feature – it could be damaged when maneuvering torsion bars or fall off track. This is due to the design of the chassis – it is as small as possible rubber parts that could be damaged by flame ( due to the possibility of using tanks obrazmo so that the crew did not come out of them in the affected area of ​​nuclear weapons ) .
In addition, in the 1970s was a very big shortage of spare parts to it was then considered "top secret" tank.

Later, of course, everything is more or less fixed, but the reputation is very problematic in the operation of the machine T-64 currently earned. Need was very high qualification for the operation of the tank. It is also required to constantly monitor its engine.

With the T-72 is much easier – it is a simple diesel engine, which is very similar to a tractor, and in itself this tank is fairly simple.
T-80 tank on the reviews, was a wonderful tank, but very gluttonous – the maximum he could travel 170 km.

Serviceability of the tanks in the Soviet army is entirely dependent on the commander of a tank unit ( a, shall we say, not all commanders believed that the war with NATO, just do will ever be, but there was not much in the GSVG ) . Here it is difficult to tell the real figures. I will say this – those tanks that were in storage, fast start is almost impossible ( it takes about a day ) . But in general, in the GSVG tanks tried to maintain in readiness – for memories served there professors at my university, they constantly feared a sudden attack of NATO.

Hi Usman,

Wonderful info, thank you! Would you happen to know if the T-64 ever served in 8GA or 1GTA? I've been researching this for a while, and i cant find any evidence of it. From what i can tell, they had T-62s until replaced by T-80s in the mid-late 80s, is that accurate in your opinion?

Thanks!

Hello, MadMax17
According to GSVG veteran's forums, 8GA and 1GTA has only T-62 and T-80, no T-64.
T-80 in early 1980-s – exclusuve only for 8GA and 1GTA (link).
First units, where T-62 replaced by T-80, is a 27th mechanised infantry division of 8GA (1982-1983, link) and 9th tank division of 1GTA (1982-1984).

Yes, before replacement (start in 1982, mainly done in 1985-1986), they had T-62.

By end of 1985 GSVG had approx. 7700 tanks:
5700 (T-64 and T-80) – in tank div. and mechanised inf. div.
Other 2000 – training regt-s, separate tank regt-s, reserve or on repair (of these 2000 approx. 1000 is T-62).

UsmanK, thank you very much for the great details on the T-64, and others.

I really appreciate it, and suspected as much, but not the issue about dust causing the engines to quit. That could make for an interesting scenario or two for the Soviet players.

My guess is they'll try to avoid dusty areas/terrain, at all costs.

Hello, Mako11!
Yes, and in addition, try not to fall into the dust plume, buyout raised other equipment. Here ( net-film.ru/film-13971 , approximately on four minutes ) about seen a column of dust raises a single BMP-1.

Once again, thanks to all who've posted here. Really grateful!

Hi Usman,

Thanks for the info, i spent a lot of time on those GSVG forums, glad we came to the same conclusion using the same data!

Another question for you. Ive read various places that the MRDs in the GSFG had two BMP MRRs versus the normal one, and in other sources that only a few if any had these. So any idea which divisions (if any) had two BMP MRRs, and when they made the switch from one to two?

Thanks!

Hello, MadMax17!
Well, yes, basically the end of 1980 was really 2 regiment on the BMP in GSFG.
Here's information on mechanized infantry divisions that were on the GSVG 1988 (Feskov VI Kalashnikov KA, Golikov VI. Soviet Army during the "Cold War" (1945-1991) – Tomsk. Tomsk University, 2004):

20 Guards Motorized Rifle Division – 3 mechanized infantry Regiment (29 Guards (BMP), 242 Guards (APCs), 67 Guards (BMP)). Total – 120 BMP-2, BMP-1 200.
21 Motorized Infantry Division – 3 motorized infantry regiment (239 (BMP), 240 (BMP), 283 Guard (APCs).). Total – 134 BMP-2, BMP-1 187.
27 Guards Motorized Rifle Division – 3 mechanized infantry Regiment (68 Guards (BMP), 243 Guard (APCs), 244 Guard (not specified).). Total – 140 BMP-2, BMP-1 177.
35 Motorized Infantry Division – 4 motorized infantry regiment (62 (APCs), 648 (Unknown), 83 Guards (BMP), 69 (BMP).). Total – 112 BMP-2, BMP-1 191.
39 Guards Motorized Rifle Division – 3 motorized infantry regiment (117 Guards (BMP), 120 Guards (APCs), 172 Guards (BMP)). Total – 127 BMP-2, BMP-1 187.
57 Guards Motorized Rifle Division – 3 motorized infantry regiment (170 Guards (BMP), 174 Guards (APCs), 241 Guards (APCs)). Total – 59 BMP-2, 99 BMP-1.
94 Guards Motorized Rifle Division – 3 motorized infantry regiment (204 Guards (BMP), 286 Guards (APCs), 288 Guards (APCs)). Total – 51 BMP-2, BMP-1 101.
207 Motorized Rifle Division – 3 motorized infantry regiment (33 (APCs), 40 (BMP), 400 (BMP)). Total – 134 BMP-2, BMP-1 185.

Specified Number of BMP for the entire division, not only for motorized rifle regiments. If it is necessary – and I can write a number of armored personnel carriers.

What is the reason – I, even if I do not know, but I'll try to find out. In total, so far as I know, there were up to 25 variants equip mechanized infantry divisions. Their equipment and composition depend on many factors (not least the availability of equipment).
Specifically, the GSFG is probably due to the fact that there directed a large number of modern technology to replace the obsolete (for example, the majority of these divisions on the basis of 1988 main APCs were outdated BTR-60, and only 207 (mostly BTR-80) and 21 (mostly BTR-70) Motorized Rifle Divisions have modern armored personnel carriers).
It may also be due to the fact that was the GSVG is a Soviet union first shield in Europe, and there are many deflected directly BMP is more suitable for combat than the BTRs.

I'd just like to echo the gratitude to UsmanK on his 'inside' knowledge and views – invaluable!

Hi UsmanK,

Thank you once again for the great info! A follow up on that: any idea if these divisions were originally equipped like that from the introduction of the BMP in the late 1960s? Or were they coverted in the 1980s from the standard 2 x BTR MRR structure? Thanks again, i really appreciate it!

Max

I looked into my existing handbooks, but alas, the general information on this issue no. But I will try to collect the available information, and link it to more or less normal form.
But there is information on a separate motorized rifle regiment. For example, the 69th Regiment from BTR to BMP in 1982 ( link ) .

Hi UsmanK,

Ok, lookong forward to what you dig up, many thanks again for all the info!

Max

Hello, MadMax17!

Information about re-armament from BTR to BMP small, but made up something like this:
all regiments and divisions in the GSVG established on the basis of previously established divisions (motorized infantry can be converted to tank (and conversely) – for example, 216 Guards Motorized Rifle Regiment, which became 287 tank regiment). Initially, they were equipped with armored personnel carriers (not only BTR-60, but earlier BTR-152, BTR-50 and BTR-40). Re-armament began in late 1960-s-early 1970s (Mainly from 1972-1973 years), once with the armored personnel carriers, which were, on BMP. Primarily replaced most outdated machines (the same BTR-152).
Re-armament from BTR to BMP initially went easily enough – regiments on BTR and BMP have until the mid 1970s same structure.
We now turn to the divisions. Strictly speaking, the main thing in the motorized division should be 3 mechanized infantry regiment (although there are 4). What they (BTR or BMP) – it is not particularly important. Regiments on the BMP, according to the Soviet military doctrine, were in the first line, regiments in the APC – in the second.
The reasons why the GSVG were mostly 2 regiment on BMP and 1on armored personnel carriers, and basically had to turn a few.
The first – economic. In theory, on BMP assumed the bulk of the motorized rifle divisions in the Soviet army. Only in theory. But it required huge money. But GSVG are advance units (in all senses), so that their content was given a lot more money. Appropriately, they perepadalo and best weapons, armored personnel carriers and obsolete changed immediately to the BMP.
The second – follows from the first. In the Soviet army was dominated by the principle that the unit is equipped with that will. That is, if given the BMP – unit is equipped with the BMP, and anyway, there relies on the organizational structure. For example, it existed motorized infantry regiments, which were half BTR and half BMP. In inner military districts divisions can equipped only with trucks and oboslete APCs like a BTR-152. For this reason, some regiments GSVG and in 1989 were armed with old (and not so successful) BTR-60.
Third – follows from the doctrine. BMP (as opposed to APC) to be used in the first line of defense (or attack). Accordingly, in the GSVG as misuse bordering NATO should have been more BMP.

In general, as I understand it, 2 regiment on BMP and 1 on BTR – this is the beginning to mid-1980s. Before that BMP is simply not enough.

And even I forgot to add – on plans adopted in the mid-1980s, it was assumed in 1989 to begin the transition to the new motorized infantry divisions staffing (in the regiment – 3 battalions in the division – regiment three instead of four). It is supposed to re-equip all infantry regiments on the BMP (BMP-2 / BMP-3), and an APC (APC-80 / BTR-80A) in the division remained only one separate motorized infantry battalion. But economics and politics brought about changes, and none of this really has not been done then. But there is a tendency – the rejection of weak and poorly armed armored armored vehicles in favor of BMP-2 / BMP-3.

I would like to echo the thanks given by others!

Thank you very much Usman!

btw, when I worked in BOC in the mid80s time frame, we had the Soviets with T80BVs in our sector…quite a few of them in fact in Plauen right down the road from Camp Hof.

Our LTs joked that since it was only a few miles up the street, they might be at our gates before we busted out of camp…

I would like to echo the thanks given by others!

Thank you very much Usman!

btw, when I worked in BOC in the mid80s time frame, we had the Soviets with T80BVs in our sector…quite a few of them in fact in Plauen right down the road from Camp Hof.

Our LTs joked that since it was only a few miles up the street, they could be at our gates before we busted out of camp…

Hello, zaevor2000!

In Plauen located 29th Motorized Rifle Regiment of the 20th Motorized Rifle Division. Armed with BMP-2 (or BMP-1) and both times you mentioned the T-80BV.
Just do good, that the Cold War did not turn into a real war. I do not believe that our planet would be able to survive after the war …

NATO units facing T80BV in the mid 1980s would be quite unlucky- even by late 1990, there were less than 600 of these in Soviet service West of the Urals.