WaltOHara | 19 Jul 2016 11:23 a.m. PST |
Yes, as is my wont, I have waxed prolix in yet another thrilling Convention After Action Report, you know, like one does. Here it is, here: link Thanks for your marginal interest, and thanks for reading! V/R Walt O'Hara |
demiurgex | 19 Jul 2016 11:44 a.m. PST |
Well, that was an interesting disclaimer at the front! Thanks for all your work for the con – love your work for the iphone guidbook, saw you and your son at the ticket counter (he's a great kid), and appreciate your write up! |
Der Alte Fritz | 19 Jul 2016 11:51 a.m. PST |
A very nice and enjoyable report Walt. Thank you. At the risk of starting a move Hcon thread again, I agree with you that staying at Fredericksburg seems like the best idea. Conventions take some time to grow and it would be a shame to waste the 4 years invested in the site by moving it again. I like consistency : being familiar with the layout of the convention center, being familiar with how/where to park, where to get food, etc. In the Midwest, it seems that we used to move Little Wars every year and as a result we had a string of mediocre conventions. Once we stayed put at Lincolnshire, we were able to build a consistency that resulted in a growing convention. (of course, Marriot management eventually decided not to have us back so we were forced to move). And what's not to like about Fredericksburg as a location, especially if you are a history buff. You have four major ACW battlefields within a stone's throw of the convention site. Nothing like that in Lancaster, Chicago, NJ or whatever. It sounds like the games were pretty much filled up – as a potential game master, I like the sound of that. I don't have a lot of sympathy for folks complaining about the driving time – I have a 750 mile drive from Chicago and it takes me two days, which I don't mind doing for the best convention that we have in the USA. |
ColCampbell | 19 Jul 2016 12:17 p.m. PST |
Walt, Thanks for the report and your observations. I also agree with you about not moving Historicon. I'm planning now to go next year with a 900+ mile drive over two days (one way) from Mississippi. Two of my gaming buddies fly from here to Richmond, then drive over. Another drives from southern Mississippi while another drives from southeast Arkansas. But it is well worth it to go to our best convention. Jim |
PJ ONeill | 19 Jul 2016 12:44 p.m. PST |
Yourself, the staff and the other volunteers did a fantastic job making it a great con- I particularly like the Guide Book, it is always useful. I have to identify myself as one of the "whiners" from the NE who reacted negatively to the change in drivetime from ~4hrs to 9 hours. Your arguments and the obvious success of the convention really have influenced my opinion on the viability of the site. While there are still some less-than-wonderfull aspects- the noise-level in the main gaming room, the traffic on I-95 etc, the thing I liked least about the site was the lack of a central point to socialize in. The Expo staff have made some effort in that direction, as evidenced by the last pic on your blog-post. (I'm the one who can't seem to shut-up). My thoughts lean more towards "Don't break a good thing" and less "It's too far and too expensive". Thanks for all your work and I hope H'con continues to be a success. |
TheKing30 | 19 Jul 2016 12:46 p.m. PST |
I'm amused that you comment on losing 200 people off the bat if we move HCon. How many did we lose when we moved to FB? We moved Historicon to FB and the convention has dropped off in attendance – almost by half? These people never came back. To leave the HCon there will be to slowly kill it off. The convention has been at FB for how many years and you're stagnant in growth? You're not growing the convention there. I do agree with you the conventions should be spilt over different locations. Keep Fall In at Lancaster, move Cold Wars to FB and move Historicon to New Jersey. |
demiurgex | 19 Jul 2016 12:49 p.m. PST |
I'd prefer the Con to stay put. That being said, moving Historicon, the Summer Con, to the NE makes some sense as well, as it helps with the weather. I agree the flagship con is a moot point at this time, so I don't care if Historicon moves north while Cold Wars or Fall In moves south. As far as the Fredericksburg location, it is a great place for a con IMO. Yes, the traffic on the major highways is bad, but then it is going up for me to NE too. And yes, there's ways to get there that mitigate that considerably. I also think that the con should be oriented to the person that comes for the whole con, as opposed to the day tripper. Rt 30 was always a nightmare for me in Lancaster, not getting to and from but simply trying to get across it to get something to eat. Anyway, I'm sure there will be good cons to come. |
TRUgamer | 19 Jul 2016 12:50 p.m. PST |
Walt, I believe you inadvertently transposed the costs of two of the prospective locations. Kalahari (PA) in the Poconocs has the higher room rate. (Includes full family access to the Resort/waterpark) Facility/tables/chairs are all free to HMGS. Somerset (NJ) room rates are exactly the same as the Lancaster/Fredricksburg hotels. I thought the meeting was informative and explained the process very well. Kudos to the presenters. I feel we should be looking at the best facilities for all our conventions around the membership "triangle" that was discussed in the meeting. I'm optimistic we can arrive at something that works for everyone. I don't mind coming down to Fredricksburg once a year. Perhaps it doesn't need to be in the high heat of summer. TRU |
TheKing30 | 19 Jul 2016 1:09 p.m. PST |
Any chance of getting the minutes to that meeting? |
clifblkskull | 19 Jul 2016 1:19 p.m. PST |
Once again,excellent AAR and blog Clif |
holien | 19 Jul 2016 1:42 p.m. PST |
Walt thanks for the report and I agree with your sentiment. |
John Armatys | 19 Jul 2016 1:45 p.m. PST |
Interesting, from the point of view of a UK wargamer, to see a thorough report on a US show – UK and US shows are very different! |
PJ ONeill | 19 Jul 2016 1:47 p.m. PST |
King30- Last weeks con was the 5th at F'burg and the 200 less attendees comment was the observed result of the move to F'burg from Valley Forge, if we had lost half, we would be down to under 1K. (If I'm not mistaken) |
WaltOHara | 19 Jul 2016 1:55 p.m. PST |
TRU: you are completely correct, I couldn't for the life of me remember the new sites mentioned in Scott's analysis (which, btw, I do give him good marks on, it is exactly the quantitative look I think we all want to see). When people express an interest in the metrics used by the site search committee, his report was spot on-- they haven't' changed that drastically over the years, at least since when I was attending similar meetings in the early 2000s. I would like to get a copy of his slides and do some independent confirmation. I hope it is included with the minutes of the meeting, when they are ready. As for H'con losing the 200 attendees "on average" with every move, that is a direct quote from Scott Landis, whom I throw in the crowd interested in taking HISTORICON back to the North-- so I'm guessin H'con lost 200 with the move to Valley Forge, and 200 more with the move to Fredericksburg by his logic. How HISTORICON will grow in New Jersey better than how it will or won't grow in Fredericksburg as a "given", wasn't discussed beyond a vague notion of geographical scatter points in our membership database. The idea being that if we cram all the conventions in one state convenient to people in New Jersey, we will somehow be serving all of us-- New Englander, Ohioan, North Carolinian and Tennessean alike. My opinion, which is as good or bad as anyone else's opinion (yours included), is that is a strategy that will cut our nose off to spite our face. I am certain we will lose everyone from South of Fredericksburg that we gained in the last 4 years. In my *opinion*, our conventions should serve geographically disparate groups so the people in the South aren't left out, nor are the people who trek from Maine and are starting to get fed up with the drive. As for "Flagship" conventions, I think the notion is pretty much dead these days. Historicon is about as big as any other convention, maybe slightly bigger than CW. I keep hearing verbiage about "where are the big showplace games I associate with Historicon?" Well, I played in some damn great games over Historicon and although they might not have won a visual award or anything they were highly entertaining. So if the Board wants to take Historicon away from Virginia, go ahead, they seem to have made up their minds they are going to do it after 17 anyway, no matter what gets blogged or yelled about on TMP. My point is there should be another convention in the FB space to replace it. If not, well, there are PLENTY of local conventions to go to instead. Walt |
TheKing30 | 19 Jul 2016 1:57 p.m. PST |
@PJ – I gotta see if I can get the actual numbers. Valley Forge definitely wasn't the high numbers for HCon. If, after five years, we're still 200 attendees shy of Valley Forge, how is that growing the convention? Wasn't Valley Forge was on the 4th of July weekend, making matters worse? |
TheKing30 | 19 Jul 2016 2:08 p.m. PST |
As for "Flagship" conventions, I think the notion is pretty much dead these days. Historicon is about as big as any other convention, maybe slightly bigger than CW. I keep hearing verbiage about "where are the big showplace games I associate with Historicon?" Well, I played in some damn great games over Historicon and although they might not have won a visual award or anything they were highly entertaining. So if the Board wants to take Historicon away from Virginia, go ahead, they seem to have made up their minds they are going to do it after 17 anyway, no matter what gets blogged or yelled about on TMP. My point is there should be another convention in the FB space to replace it. If not, well, there are PLENTY of local conventions to go to instead. Very interesting that you said this. Most people in the NE felt the EXACT same way when HCon was moved to FB. The BoD pulled HCon from it's location. Allot of people just said, "Heck with it, we'll attend the local conventions". The BoD at that time just never figured people would follow through on that. They did. I'm going to sit back on this and see how it unfolds. Ideally, I'd like to see HCon go someplace just north of DC. Not too far north that it excludes the people from the southern states yet not too far south that it excludes people coming from the NE. The next year or so should prove to be VERY interesting! |
McKinstry | 19 Jul 2016 3:11 p.m. PST |
Thank you Walt. For what it is worth, I fully agree with the sentiments in yellow. |
capncarp | 19 Jul 2016 3:38 p.m. PST |
Just to throw my own unsolicited opinion into the teapot, I urge folks wishing for GenCon-sized conventions tp consider what would be lost by the increase in attendance. I, aling with afew if not more others, would specifically avoid the Human Sea Charge environment this would engender. Grow the hobby and the cons, to be sure, but moderately. More medium-sized and local cons, well-advertised and well in advance, family-friendly, will help make the hobby at least stable, if not growing. |
47Ronin | 19 Jul 2016 4:22 p.m. PST |
Thanks for your AAR, including the pictures, Walt. I always enjoy your convention reports. A couple of comments: I) I looked at your historical vs. non-historical game breakdown. First, thanks for posting the numbers. I usually do something similar myself, but didn't this year due to lack of time. Second, you may want to go back and look at your numbers. I looked at them twice and found "Colonial" listed twice (with 19 games), "Early 20th Century" listed twice (with 10 games) and "Dark Ages" listed twice (with 2 games). If these are repeats, that overstates the number of historical games by 31. Not a big deal, given the overall number of games. Third, I'm not sure if you listed the games filed under "Other" which I know is a pretty broad catch all category. For example, I know at least some of the Gnome Wars games were listed under "Other." There were at least 3 (maybe 4) such games. Once again, not enough of a change to impact the overall numbers. II) Glad you enjoyed the games you played in, especially the RCW game. Jared does a great job. I've played in his events before. FYI, he runs a gaming club at the school where he teaches. Next time you see him, you two might compare notes, given your years of hosting the Summer Gaming Camp. III) Finally, I wanted this commentary to be about the "gaming" part of your AAR, not the "political" portion in yellow (which I skipped but will now go back and look at in detail). If I have any remarks, I'll share them with you. Thanks again for your report and for your years of service to HMGS and gamers like me. |
WaltOHara | 19 Jul 2016 4:27 p.m. PST |
47R, I noticed that earlier today, but haven't had time to redo the numbers. Apologies, red faced. Walt. |
Double G | 19 Jul 2016 5:09 p.m. PST |
Thanks for taking the time to write your report and share your thoughts Walt, I appreciate it. I've gone back and forth about Historicon being in Fredericksburg; at this point, I'm with you and think it should stay where it is. I said this in another thread, but here goes; I had a down year last year, the worst Historicon I had since it moved from Lancaster. I decided to make a concerted effort to promote the convention to my customer base in the area, I posted on my website, Facebook page and other Facebook pages, I also mailed out close to 60 fliers and sent out about 20 discount admission coupons that were given to me at Cold Wars, I also handed out quite a few of them at the Valley Forge and Gettysburg Toy Soldier shows in the Spring. Rather that focus on the negative, I focused on the positive and it paid off, many of my customers attended, enjoyed themselves and said they'd be back next year. I like your thought process of abandoning the whole "Flagship" concept and focus more on having three conventions in different parts of the East Coast to cater to attendees in each area. Like you said, keep Historicon where it is, keep moving in a positive direction to keep it going strong and focus on Cold Wars and Fall In as they are both held in the same spot and that spot is a huge question mark at this point, while the Expo center is not and is a sure thing. The Fredericksburg area wants us there and has done a lot to try to keep us there. The Expo employees are always very friendly and courteous, the restaurants and hotels in the area treat us well, want us there and appreciate our business. Sorry, but I don't get that same feeling in Lancaster, maybe it's just me, but that's my take. I would like to see Historicon stay right where it is, maybe do something with Cold Wars and Fall In. If Historicon does move to a new location, I'd love to see Fall In move to Fredericksburg so at least that location gets one convention regardless. Like you said, we can say all we want, but whatever happens happens; I'll go where they are held regardless………….. |
rmaker | 19 Jul 2016 5:12 p.m. PST |
King30, when are you going to get the fact that Historicon was GOING to move from the Host because the Host wanted us out? We were cutting into their profits (heavily) and there is no way HMGS could afford the price increase that would have been necessary. They are perfectly fine with Fall In and Cold Wars in the off-season, but July is the middle of their best period. HCon was costing them: 1) significant loss on room rentals, 2) significant loss on event rentals, 3) total loss on the Comedy Club, 4) noticeable loss on the bar. This comes from my discussions with staff and managers during the last two HCons at the Host. I can only assume you have never worked in the hospitality industry, because a moment's though makes this all quite believable to anyone who has. As for the PA and NJ sites the disgruntled keep coming up with, they all appear to be unionized. The vendors (the loss of whom you all bemoan) will not show up for a unionized hall. Why? Because the standard union contract requires the presence of two union workers per booth for set up and tear down, with minimum four hour shifts. And double time on Sunday. Most of the vendors are on short margins as it is. Making them pay an extra $720 USD (assuming $30 USD and hour, which is probably low) for two guys to sit and watch them do all the work is likely a deal killer. |
47Ronin | 19 Jul 2016 5:31 p.m. PST |
No red face necessary, Walt. You are too busy doing more important things. That's why we have glorified proofreaders, like me. I look forward to our continued discussions, both on line and in person. |
47Ronin | 19 Jul 2016 5:48 p.m. PST |
Just looked at your comments, rmaker. Rather than addressing them at the moment one by one, I'll just ask you a quick question: were you at the membership meeting at Historicon on Friday night? I think I already know the answer (which is "no"), because if you had been there, you would know that the union issue was addressed. It's not an issue for the future locations currently under consideration. If I'm wrong, I'm sure an HMGS official will comment here and tell me so. I do like being a member of your so-called "the disgruntled." Sounds like (and reminds me of) Jack Nicholson in "The Departed." For those who have watched the movie, you know how well that turned out. |
kayjay | 19 Jul 2016 6:26 p.m. PST |
None of the sites we are looking at is a Union shop so to speak. The reason we moved HCON to Fredericksburg is simple – it was the best option we had. Keep in mind we had just been thru the VFCC canceling HCON 2011 when they got their license and then backing off when work could not start. The HOST had no 2012 July date available. We looked at York, downtown Lancaster, the NCC, Dulles Expo and others I've forgotten with the passage of time. Kevin |
TheKing30 | 19 Jul 2016 6:32 p.m. PST |
King30, when are you going to get the fact that Historicon was GOING to move from the Host because the Host wanted us out? We were cutting into their profits (heavily) and there is no way HMGS could afford the price increase that would have been necessary Do you have any documentation about this price increase? As for the PA and NJ sites the disgruntled keep coming up with, they all appear to be unionized. The vendors (the loss of whom you all bemoan) will not show up for a unionized hall. Why? Because the standard union contract requires the presence of two union workers per booth for set up and tear down, with minimum four hour shifts. And double time on Sunday. Most of the vendors are on short margins as it is. Making them pay an extra $720 USD USD (assuming $30 USD USD and hour, which is probably low) for two guys to sit and watch them do all the work is likely a deal killer. Two other people just chimed in about the unions not being an issue. Where are you getting your information from? How can we validate your claims? |
Winston Smith | 19 Jul 2016 6:34 p.m. PST |
I have already kissed Historicon goodbye. I can only make one convention anyway, so I don't miss it. Nor will my knees miss the drive. But you made a very good point about not needing a "Flagship" game. Why can't all three cons be the same? I admit I was trolling when I started a thread about how the vendors did. It sounded from all the doom and gloom before Historicon that this was make or break. So most of the vendors did well. Good. I'm glad. So that makes Historicon in Fredricksburg more viable. Ok. That's good for the South. But a lot of us are worried about the other two. Poconos? I live almost in the Poconos and never heard of that place. Live and learn. Hey. It's closer. If I can make my one con per year, I'll be happy. I graciously allow Historicon to stay where it is. |
Brian98 | 19 Jul 2016 6:55 p.m. PST |
rmaker: "As for the PA and NJ sites the disgruntled keep coming up with, they all appear to be unionized." That is not correct. As reported at the membership meeting, none of the potential venues under consideration for any future conventions are unionized. I hope this clarification helps. Respectfully, John Spiess Treasurer, HMGS, Inc. |
wakenney | 20 Jul 2016 5:41 a.m. PST |
Thanks for the AAR. Good read. I started attending HCon only in the past 4 years. The Fxburg location is great. If we want the event to grow, it occurs to me that we need more games. Last year and this year most of the games seemed to be full or close to it. Not all, and many GMs were willing to add people into the games as they showed up. But, if we don't grow the number of games, then the attendance will never grow. Even in the busy hours there were tables in almost all event rooms that were empty. Just begging for something to be played there. How do we fill those gaps? That should be the focus, not moving the Con, taking a hit on attendance, and hoping for the best. |
Al Swearengen | 20 Jul 2016 6:17 a.m. PST |
I know several people that have put on exhibits at the Somerset facility and can verify, it is not unionized. As for the theory that the Host wanted Historicon out, I find that strange. They actively courted WBC to come back during the last contract negotiations. The last few years, the place was noticeably quieter on the weekend prior to WBC ( which used to be Historicon weekend ) . So other than 2012, they seemed to have available dates. |
historygamer | 20 Jul 2016 8:43 a.m. PST |
Walt: Thanks for the write up. Enjoyed reading it and felt like I was there. My only quibble is with the statement by someone that moving Hcon is guaranteed to lose attendance. That is speculation. What we do know is that the highest attendance of record was the second to last year at the Host – just about 3,700 (I came across the attendance numbers the other day). It has declined since then. I have no idea where Hcon would do better than where it is now – that would be speculation on my part. Attendance seems to have bottomed out (last year it dropped a further 50). I did enjoy Hcon when it was the flagship, but those days may be gone. That said, IIRC the money maker used to be CW, not HCON, but that may be way back in the day now as well. I don't believe the past level of effort goes into advertising any of the cons like it once did. Seems reasonable that would have an affect on attendance. In regards to the Host, I would advocate a wait and see attitude. Thanks again for the nice AAR. |
TheKing30 | 20 Jul 2016 6:59 p.m. PST |
That should be the focus, not moving the Con, taking a hit on attendance, and hoping for the best. On paper, that sounds like a great idea. However, There are some serious issues with keeping Historicon at the FCC: In the five years we've been at the FCC, we've never recovered the attendees that were lost when the con moved from Valley Forge. There have been five years to "grow the con". We're still at roughly 2,450. The first two years at FCC we were at 2,700. At the Host we were at 3100 or higher. That's a loss of roughly 650 people! The con has shrunk!!! FCC is expensive. I wouldn't be surprised to see that Historicon lost money this year. So my question – to anyone that cares to answer – The expenses are higher and the attendance is lower. Can someone explain to me how to fix this without moving the convention? |
TSD101 | 20 Jul 2016 7:38 p.m. PST |
Does anyone believe for 1 second that there's a line of people out the door waiting to stay at the Host of all places, "in season" now that Historicon is gone? With the condition its in now? I am certain we will lose everyone from South of Fredericksburg that we gained in the last 4 years. But do they make up for the people from the NE who dropped the con? I think its just time to make an HMGS NE. There's already South and Mid South. This is a pointless exercise because neither side is going to convince the other. |
civildisobedience | 20 Jul 2016 7:39 p.m. PST |
rmaker, I think your thoughts regarding the Host are a little off base. First, if the Host "wanted us out" they could have chosen not to renew a contract many times. They had no obligation to rent meeting space for the convention. |
civildisobedience | 20 Jul 2016 8:08 p.m. PST |
Okay, on the issue of moving the convention or not, let me start with this. 1. I didn't like the way the initial move was handled. I was angry, like many others, at the BoD at the time, but all that has been said and resaid. 2. I like the Fredericksburg location, and I don't mind the longer drive one time a year. My traveling companions and I have taken advantage of the drive to stop at places like Antietam and Manassas. The restaurants are great, and the location is adequate (the noise is bad, and I have a few other complaints, but no place will be perfect, and certainly no place we can afford). 3. I'd like to also note that the current BoD seems to be a very different animal than those that preceded it in recent years. The extensive meeting (which I could only catch a little of because I was running a game) is an example of that. The old BoD acted like the politburo. This seems like a group that is genuinely trying to be communicative and to deal with problems they didn't create but inherited. I was quick to lash out at previous BoDs, and I maintain they deserved it (you all know who you are), but I am just as ready to commend people making an effort. Okay, here's the problem. We lost a lot of people moving to F'burg. It should bother everybody that a thousand or more people who helped make the cons what they were for years are no longer at Hcon. It is NOT a good thing. And while there was some merit to the argument that a location needs time to settle in, that time has past. If we stay in F'burg, we know exactly what the attendance will be. We will stay there, or drift lower, but there will be little chance of a return to the numbers we've seen at the Host. I personally don't like accepting that, and I think it is a bad thing, both in terms of the convention itself and also in disloyalty to people who came for years and years and built the thing to what it was. It feels like a crappy thing to me, and even more so for the utter disregard shown by those responsible at the time. Still, even if we accept things as they are, my perception is that the dealer hall is in ICU. It's more than just dealers not coming, it's also dealers bringing less inventory. Nothing has stopped me from buying in the dealer hall more than the 75,000 times I asked for something and was told, "we only brought two, and we sold those at 12:02 on Thursday." I'm not banging on dealers, but if they are seeing marginal sales, the natural response is to pull back, which only worsens the problem and creates a cycle of decay. If Fredericksburg is not working for the dealers, in the long term, the convention is not viable there. I've heard some anecdotal comments of good sales this time, as well as some of poor sales. But the bottom line is we continue to shed dealers. The guys with the computer games have been gone for two cons now, and many others have vanished as well. I don't know if moving back north will solve these problems. A lot of bad feeling was created, but my best guess is that attendance would start to move back toward the old numbers (not necessarily TO the old numbers). And if dealer costs can be reduced, that would be a big help. Also, it's no secret the room rates have risen rather sharply too in the time we've been down there…FAR more than the inflation rate. There are no easy answers, and I wish I'd been able to hear more of the meeting. My own thought is the best way to go is to stay in F'burg through the end of the contract next year. This would give enough time to see if the new owner is serious about renovating the Host. I'm someone who believes almost nothing I hear or am told, but I suspect they DO plan to do some serious reno. When the old company bought the place years ago, milking it and running it into the ground was still an option. It's not anymore. It's at the point where it can't continue to operate, or if it does, the jury-rigging and half-baked fixes will become prohibitively expensive. NO ONE would have bought the place if they didn't intend to fix it up. If they do, I think Hcon 2018 should move back there. It always was the best location, notwithstanding the deterioration that has occurred in recent years. |
shthar | 21 Jul 2016 1:33 a.m. PST |
It's almost 2017 people. We can't go back to the host any more than we can get back our dead grandfathers. |
historygamer | 21 Jul 2016 5:13 a.m. PST |
"We can't go back to the host any more than we can get back our dead grandfathers." Can't go back? We go back twice a year. Two-thirds of our conventions are held there. Two-thirds of annual attendance is generated there. So here is a question – what if attendance slipped yet again this year at Hcon? The CD, as reported by someone on TMP said that attendance was about the same as last year – which was down 50 from the previous year. We have not seen any positive trend for attendance at the FCC at all. As I said earlier, my attitude on the Host is wait and see, but if it is significantly improved…. |
Double G | 21 Jul 2016 6:17 a.m. PST |
"We can't go back to the host any more than we can get back our dead grandfathers"……… Jon Bon Jovi begs to differ; he's got the power to turn back time and let you say goodbye to grampy Tim………….. |
TheKing30 | 21 Jul 2016 7:46 a.m. PST |
Can't go back? We go back twice a year. Two-thirds of our conventions are held there. Two-thirds of annual attendance is generated there.So here is a question – what if attendance slipped yet again this year at Hcon? The CD, as reported by someone on TMP said that attendance was about the same as last year – which was down 50 from the previous year. We have not seen any positive trend for attendance at the FCC at all. These are exactly my thoughts. FCC is a nice place. However, the purpose of the move was (supposedly) to grow the convention. Right now attendance is shrinking and the FCC is expensive. All I'd like to see is a good solid business reason to keep HCon there past 2017. |
rmcaras | 21 Jul 2016 8:55 a.m. PST |
My 2cents….three cons: Historicon = Somerset or Lancaster. Fall in= Fredericksburg. Cold Wars = other with Historicon. Question: since a NJ based con developed in June from Historicon's move south, does moving Historicon to Somerset in July create issues? Note, my suggestion is not based upon any study of long term weather history. YMMV. |
TheKing30 | 21 Jul 2016 9:09 a.m. PST |
My 2cents….three cons: Historicon = Somerset or Lancaster. Fall in= Fredericksburg. Cold Wars = other with Historicon. I was thinking more Cold Wars for FCC. Reason? Cold Wars is the only one that suffers from the poor weather. Question: since a NJ based con developed in June from Historicon's move south, does moving Historicon to Somerset in July create issues?
I'd be shocked if it did. The NJ Con is close enough to it's customer base as to not become a major issue to attend. Note, my suggestion is not based upon any study of long term weather history.YMMV.
I thought it was a rather good idea – FWIW. |
historygamer | 21 Jul 2016 9:09 a.m. PST |
One thing that struck me that I just thought about – according to Walt and others, the parking lot was jammed this year – as in full. Not sure why that would be since according to the CD attendance was roughly the same. But, it begs the question, if the parking lot was full this year with an "average" attendance, how could parking handle growth of even a couple of hundred more people? |
TRUgamer | 21 Jul 2016 9:24 a.m. PST |
rmcaras, Agree with your 2 cents. As an NJCon organizer I'd say it's worth considering moving the date if HCon moved to NJ in July. Although being a little over a month apart, this has never stopped me from attending in Fredericksburg. FWIW NJCon was founded in 2008 prior to the move to Fredricksburg. TRU |
civildisobedience | 21 Jul 2016 9:33 a.m. PST |
I understand the idea of cold wars in Fredericksburg, but if you think about it, it doesn't really make sense. The location has failed. It lost significant attendance and has never regained any of it. It is more expensive, and it is killing the dealers. Those are all just facts. Honestly, I like the location and don't mind going down once a year ( though doing it for a shorter con would prompt some thought), but this isn't about personal opinions. There are some factual problems with FCC, and they can't be ignored forever, no matter how many people come on here and say, "it's closer for me so I like it!" |
TheKing30 | 21 Jul 2016 9:36 a.m. PST |
As an NJCon organizer I'd say it's worth considering moving the date if HCon moved to NJ in July. That would be delightful. I work for a hospital and it always seems that NJ Con falls on what we call "overnighters" – weekends where we have to work overnight. Try as I might, I can never seem to get that weekend off. |
TheKing30 | 21 Jul 2016 9:39 a.m. PST |
I understand the idea of cold wars in Fredericksburg, but if you think about it, it doesn't really make sense. The location has failed. It lost significant attendance and has never regained any of it. It is more expensive, and it is killing the dealers. Those are all just facts. Point well taken. Just curious, could part of the pricing issue be caused by the date? Would a convention in late March – early April be as expensive as a convention in the summer??? |
BTCTerrainman | 21 Jul 2016 9:52 a.m. PST |
Cold Wars in Virginia is a recipe for disaster. Most of the time when we have had snow in Lancaster, it also snows in NOVA. For those of you northerners (and I originally hail from there), snow removal in Virginia is slow with a lot less equipment then you have up north. Plus northerners are more accustomed to driving in snowy weather. Southerners generally don't go out. Thus moving Cold Wars south could be a problem unless moved to April. In regards to the FCC, it has been our best show as a vendor ever since we moved there. So to paint vendor satisfaction with such a broad brush is ignoring facts. |
Bowman | 21 Jul 2016 11:49 a.m. PST |
….according to Walt and others, the parking lot was jammed this year – as in full. Not sure why that would be since according to the CD attendance was roughly the same. According to me too. I wasn't counting any cars but I thought on Saturday the parking lot was totally packed. First time I ever saw that happen. |
Ligniere | 21 Jul 2016 12:01 p.m. PST |
parking lot was totally packed I left the parking lot on Saturday at around 2 PM – came back about an hour later. I had no problem parking within 150 feet of the conference center doors. |
historygamer | 21 Jul 2016 12:13 p.m. PST |
So are you saying the parking lot was not full, or you were just lucky enough to come across an open space at the right time? Again, I am just going on what others posted here. Did you read Walt's excellent write-up? |