"The Sword And The Shileleigh" Topic

Okay, so I can't spell this afternoon. Meh. Blame Winston. It's his idea after all.

So Winston Smith had this great idea… The '98 Rebellion using TSATF, of course.

Yeos, Rebels, Redcoat Regulars, and some Forlorn Frenchies, alongside beer, chili, and probably some badly out of tune singing of songs.

The Question becomes the grading of the troops.

I'm guessing Zulus for the Rebel Irish, Eqyptians with carbines for the Fencibles and such. Mounted units? Hmm. Now there's a good question.

But what about the French? And do we scatter in a few Gun Men with the Pointy Stick Men for the rebels?

Recommendations from the Gallery are most welcome.

For the record, I was going to call this post The Sword And The Big Knobby Stick, but Winston said "no"….. You can blame him. We usually do.

Eric

I like The Sword and the Shileleigh as a title -- silly, but at least a good working title if nothing else.

And I like the idea of the design, I think TS&TF will adapt itself quite nicely for this conflict (having myself done something similar for the Jacobite Rebellion -- "The Sword in the Heather").

I don't know enough details about this rising to offer much beyond general suggestions, but by all means use some musketeers as Key Figures among the Irish pikemen if that's what the period calls for, and by all means allow for some French regulars as hypothetical participants -- I would assume these would be comparable to British regulars.

This would be a game I'd happily play in, given the chance.

"And do we scatter in a few Gun Men with the Pointy Stick Men for the rebels?"

Yes with long barreled guns but not that many, use Afghan jezailchi stats maybe.

Miltia and Yeomanry were not very willing or good respectively so poor stats for them.

French were separate units--just as well as there weren't a great many French-speaking rebels near the French landing.

I agree that government mounted forces are a problem. The mounted yeomanry in particular seem to have been poorly disciplined and aggressive to a fault. It seldom worked out well for small units of cavalry opposed to large blocks of pikes.

But your serious problem is addressing the Irish drill and command difficulties in the TSATF game structure. I think it will work much better for ambushes and attacks on small villages and manor houses than for the larger battles.

We will of course have pictures so people can angrily demand references for Lauzun's Legion in Ireland.

The battle will take place a mile or two from where me Da claimed we came from on the old sod.
Kind of like the Wyoming Massacre then.

Key figures are the poor guys that the shooter inflicting damage wants to kill. If he would rather kill pikeys than gunners…

I'm thinking we will have a lot of Bashi Bazouk and Natal Native Contingent equivalents swanning about in the bogs.

After all, a knobkerrie is just a Shillelagh.

I think this would be great fun, I hope it comes to pass!

Be sure to play your Clancy Brothers rebel songs while playing.

"Had we all not stopped for lunch,
And beer along the way.
That fine young man with the golden hair
Would be alive today!

So Young Roddy McCorley
Hanged anyway
At the bridge at Toome today."

"But your serious problem is addressing the Irish drill and command difficulties in the TSATF game structure." -- I'm not sure what difficulties these might be. Are you saying the Irish rebels were hopelessly uncoordinated in the field? Were they slow to move or react? I'm sure this could be simulated within TS&TF mechanics.

An idea -- adjust the card drawing for movement to cause Irish movement to be even more haphazard. Or fire, as well. What if the phase could be ended abruptly for Irish units (or all units) before everything has a chance to move or fire? If the Irish are moving in black cards, for example, what if a drawn black face card means an Irish unit must NOT move (or fire)? It's frozen that turn. Or what if an ace or joker drawn ends that phase for one or both sides, so that not every unit gets a guaranteed chance to move or fire each turn?

Winston is already well into the spirit of this! In fact, I suspect he might already be well into spirits in general.

But blood for blood without remorse,
I've ta'en at Oulart Hollow
And placed my true love's clay-cold corpse
Where I full soon will follow;
And round her grave I wander drear,
Noon, night and morning early,
With breaking heart whene'er I hear
The wind that shakes the barley

Humbert's French weren't hypothetical, and some of the best troops present.

I told you I didn't know much about this rebellion, including how many French troops actually were landed and took part. More than a token few, evidently! Napoleon must have supported this idea more than Louis XV did for the Scots or English Jacobites.

Just to keep this all generic (the Oirish bits of my family come from Belfast), we shall title the Playtest version "The Battle of Ballykillbilly"… that should put the proper tone on things.

I already have a Jesuit figure, Father Carroll, all set to go. Heard he has some relatives in the former colonies, but chose to stay and minister to his people instead.

Actually, I like the discussion so far, it's brought up some things to have a good think on. My thoughts are running along the lines of the Castlebar Races. Franco-Irish meets English force. Variable or "Unknown" morale for units until they first come under fire or, push of pike, I suppose.

Well, I suppose I need to go and dig some more.

Eric

Well, Eric….
I thought this was going to be our shameful little secret. But you spilled all the beans!

We can work up a method for the Unknown Morale Irish where you roll for the table they use when they have to test for the first time.
My usual AWI TSATF where European Regulars use British tables can apply.
Lower class troops can test using Egyptian tables.
It's when you start assessing the "problematic" troops like Fencibles, Yeomanry, Irish etc that the fun begins.

We'll discuss this.

Something like this popped into mind when I first read Fleming's "The Year of the French".
So I made up names like Ballywickwack and Ballyrunninamuck.

Winston, there are no secrets when two Irishmen start plotting…

Eric

There is a TSATF variant floating around for the '45, called The Sword and the Heather.

No slight on variants, but my approach has always been to change as little as possible.
I prefer vanilla TSATF with no changes but what stats the various actors use.

I found the cover for your TSATF variant:

Shouldn't it really be called "The Shillelagh and the Flame"? Just sayin'…

i'm developping idea for something which is not very different from your front/period…the War in Vendée..and of course using our beloved TSATF…
the important points for me are which formations are allowed..
i would say mass for improvised weapons rebels (both Irish and, in my case, Vendéens/Chouans…column and open order for musket armed ones…
the regulars (French, British) is a more complicated..i don't think, except of course lght inf/chasseurs that tehy could be able to adopt open order as per TSATF….certainly line and column…with, maybe, a certain advange if closing into combat in double column

I'm the one responsible for The Sword in the Heather.

I'm almost as dedicated as Winston to changing as little as possible in the basic TS&TF rules but I felt I *had* to make certain revisions/alterations to better reflect the 18th century. I haven't really changed much about the movement or firing mechanics, or stats, but I did feel I had to use different formation rules for a linear combat period, do something to capture Highlander impetuosity, tweak artillery, and add an Overrun rule to deal with the problem of dinky unit remnants doing ridiculous things against much larger units. But SITH is a good 80% standard TS&TF, at least.

You might consider using some good old "fate dice" (the ones with the pluses, minuses, or blank faces) as well to modify rolls on things like the Morale tables or fire tables, to add random modifiers to the standard die rolls. That's a very simple way to introduce some extra unpredictability.

Piper;
I like what you said about keeping as close as possible to he basic rules. The Overrun rule is a key concept I was noodling on, since both dinky units and great bags of Irish pikes do ridiculous things, as far as I've read.

I was thinking about keeping carbine ranges for all, but only letting half the Bhoys fire in a turn, to reflect the lack of firearms, poor quality of weapons, and such.

Eric

Or cut their Hit numbers.
I would rather have 12 gunners shoot at a 3 than have have to remember who shot last turn so the others can shoot at 5.

The never stated time frame of a TSATF turn is long enough to allow all guns to be loaded.

Piper,

Is it possible we can see The Sword in the Heather somewhere?