"General de Division Saint-Hilaire Division 1809" Topic

Sorry Bernard, but I [personally] don't count modern, made up art work 'reproductions' as 'authentic' confirmation of any historical issues, particularly uniform details.
Besides my 'era is strictly 1805 campaign, where I stated I've not seen one shred of evidence.
However I may be about to eat my words. But lets not mess up Michaels thread.
d

This seemingly isn't an contemporary print, did the 10 légère carry an eagle in 1809?

They had a 1e Porte-Aigle Lt. Massboeuf. If the Eagle was carried in the field, I am unsure.

After the disaster in 1807 – the light infantry should have handed in their eagles when on campaign, I did not research the 1809 campaign so I cannot say if that order was already completely obeyed at that time, they would have had of course a 1er Porte Aigle, but did he carry one?

En 1809 chaque régiment avait son aigle porté par un officier spécialement affecté à cette tâche. Il se place normalement avec le 1er bataillon.

Les autres bataillons avaient un emblème. Là aussi c'était le plus souvent une aigle mais portée généralement par un sous-officier.
Effectivement les aigles avaient été distribuées généreusement au début de l'Empire à chaque bataillon d'infanterie. Et pendant un certains temps les 2e et 3e bataillon ont continué a porté les aigles comme emblème.
Tout rentrera dans l'ordre vers 1811.

On the subject of eagles belonging to Legere regiments, it has been my impression that the Legere regiments were ordered not to carry their eagle in the field at this time. However, that order not withstanding, did not one Legere regiment loose an eagle in the campaign of 1809?

John

I believe it was the 1e Battalion of the 24e Legere at Wagram. Lt. Francois Masseboeuf was promoted from the 3e Battalion Carabiniers to Lt. Porte Aigle by the decree of 2 February 1809. That is all the information I have.

Thank you MarbotsChasseurs.

John

Just to add a note I found by the Colonel to Prince of Neuchâtel that Masseboeuf was given the LdH for conduct on the 23rd of April. So if he did carry an eagle, he was in the thick of action in the early battles around Thann and Eckmuhl.

Les aigles impériales et le drapeau tricolore: 1804-1815
De Jean Regnault
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Les régiments légers comme ceux de la ligne emmenaient toujours leur(s) aigle(s) en campagne en 1809.
A l'époque les régiments avaient une aigle officielle (avec un porte-aigle officier spécialement affecté au 1e bataillon) et d'autres faisant office d'emblèmes! (pour les 2e et 3e bataillons).

thanks, so the French were not in accordance of 1808 regulations with only one eagle per battalion and none for Light infantry in 1809?

Charrié speaks of only one eagle captured at Wagram by the Austrian regiment Argentau.

@von Winterfeldt
Décret du 18 février 1808 relatif à la composition de l'infanterie de ligne et légère:
url=https://servimg.com/view/18898967/854]

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Et bien si! Les régiments sont en accords avec ce décret!
Je me répète: l'Aigle officielle était avec le premier bataillon. Les 2e et 3e bataillon portaient une enseigne. Ces enseignes sont les anciennes Aigles données le 05 décembre 1804 au Champ de Mars par l'Empereur en personne.
En ce qui concerne l'infanterie légère, il n'y a AUCUNE différence avec la Ligne.
Je ne sais pas où tu as trouvé que l'infanterie légère n'aurait pas eu d'Aigles en 1809????
Je ne comprends pas de quoi tu parles avec "After the disaster in 1807"?????? Quel désastre?

He may refer to 9e Legere at Battle of Mohrungen, who lost an eagle, and 18e Ligne, who lost an eagle on the first day of Battle of Eylau, and 55e Ligne at Heilsberg. I believe before that, only the 4e Ligne lost an eagle at Austerlitz, and 100e Ligne threw their eagle in the water at Dürnstein to avoid capture.

Hello everyone,

Below is the final regiment of the 4th Division. Shown are the Colonel, Major, Tambour-Major, and Chef de Musique. The regiment also did have a 1e, 2,e, and 3e Porte-Aigle, Caporal Tambour, Musicians, and sapeurs recorded in the controls de troupes. Still, I am unable to find any uniform information on those. I am aware of the adjutant-major and grenadier and voltigeur paintings available. The paintings come from El Guil, later copied by Knotel and other artists. I spoke with Mr. Paul Dawson, and he said he was unable to find any uniform details in the archives for the 105e Ligne and 72e Ligne during this time period. Could the drummers and musicians wear yellow habits with light blue facings? This is not unheard of as the 67e Ligne wore yellow habits and dark blue facings. However, I decided to make what is recorded at the moment. Just a note about the 3e Ligne and 105e Ligne in Spain. Both regiments sent two batallions d'elite to Spain in 1811. Frederic Berjaud's history of the regiment. link

Statue of De Blanmont

Tambour-Major Nicolas Haigert born in 1775. The old Tambour-Major Nicolas Serrier for the regiment was born in 1755, but Haigert took over in 1805 until 1812 when he was promoted to S.Lieut. However, his service record does not show he served in Spain.

Nicolas Haigert's service record

Nicolas Serrier's service record.

Knotel painting of the chef de Musique who did not have the LdH.

Mohrungen 25 janvier 1807
Le 9e Léger
L'histoire de ce drapeau est assez originale pour être rapportée. Quelques jours avant, l'aigle s'était
descellée de son caisson et avait été remisée dans un fourgon en attendant l'occasion de la refixer. Le jour
de la bataille les Russes s'emparent donc du drapeau avec son caisson, mais pas de l'Aigle, nuance. Durant
quelques jours c'est toutefois l'angoisse car la cavalerie de Pahlen s'est emparée de tous les fourgons du
régiment à Mohrungen, sauf un qui s'est égaré. Miraculeusement c'est celui qui contenait le "coucou" et
le régiment "inventera" donc un fait d'armes héroïque aucours duquel il reprendra son aigle à l'ennemi.
Malheureusement l'Empereur lisait les gazettes Russes et celles-ci décrivirent si bien le drapeau pris
que le doute n'était pas permis. En effet, celui du 9e Léger était exceptionnel puisqu'il s'agissait encore,
et de manière parfaitement illicite, de son drapeau de la République, remis par Bonaparte en personne
en 1802. En souvenir de sa conduite à Marengo le régiment fut honoré par le 1er Consul de l'inscription
sur son drapeau du surnom "l'incomparable". En 1809 Napoléon rayera le colonel Meunier du tableau
d'avancement avec la mention : "le colonel a perdu une aigle à Mohrungen". Ce qui était faux, mais juste !

Traduction Google
The history of this flag is original enough to be related. A few days before, the eagle had
unsealed from its casing and had been stored in a van while awaiting the opportunity to reattach it. The day
of the battle the Russians therefore seize the flag with its box, but not the Eagle, nuance. During
a few days, however, it is anguish because the cavalry of Pahlen seized all the vans of the
regiment in Mohrungen, except one which got lost. Miraculously it is the one that contained the "cuckoo" and
the regiment will therefore "invent" a heroic feat of arms during which it will take back its eagle from the enemy.
Unfortunately the Emperor read the Russian gazettes and they described the flag so well.
that there was no room for doubt. Indeed, that of the 9th Light was exceptional since it was still,
and in a perfectly illicit manner, of his flag of the Republic, handed over by Bonaparte in person
in 1802. In memory of its conduct in Marengo the regiment was honored by the 1st Consul with the inscription
on its flag of the nickname "the incomparable". In 1809 Napoleon will strike Colonel Meunier off the table
of advancement with the mention: "the colonel lost an eagle in Mohrungen". Which was wrong, but fair!

Bernard,

Thank you for that! Here is the event from Girod de L'Ain an officer in 9e Legere on his recollections of the battle. link

Le 10e léger à la bataille d'Eckmülh le 22 avril 1809.
url=https://servimg.com/view/18898967/857]

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Revue Gloire et Empire n°21 novembre-décembre 2008.

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Je ne sais pas qui a copié sur l'autre, entre Boisselier et Knotel?
Les couleurs sont légèrement différentes.

And one relies upon these /modern artistic impressions to prove what?
That they can get it wrong. yes indeed?
The flag of the 9e legere was not attached to an Eagle, hence one was not lost. They must have however been carrying their old standard, for the story to come about.

I seriously doubt Napoleon read [any current] Russian news, and it would be weeks before any such 'facts' appeared as PR for the gloating to begin.
d

A l'époque, à la cour du tsar on parlait FRANCAIS!
Le russe était très mal vu et réservé au peuple!
OUI l'Empereur pouvait facilement lire les gazettes russes écrites en Français.

Hello everyone,

Updated my blog with the final regiment of the 4th Division. I included the casualties for the regiment on 19 April 1809. I am unaware of what the regiment wore in 1809, but I have included the uniforms for the companies of the elite battalions that served in Spain in 1811 and depicted by El Guil and other artists. link

Thank you for doing this.

Nice work, but I caution- both El Guil as a single source, and some Knotells work now down to 'copyists' not direct contemporaries; uniforms [issued in/ updated/ completed] in Spain dooen't represent what was issued and worn in central European theatre.

The reinforcing 'tabs' on the collars are an example of localisation, repairs more like. For accuracy, I'd say different plates for different theatres. 'Brown' greatcoats of the Spanish cloth shade unlikely to be seen in Europe, until they marched 'home' in 1813.
regards d

Dave,

100% agree, and I should have left out these uniforms as I was well aware of the issues with El Guil and Knotel from the many posts here by more informed members and not what was most likely worn in 1809. After talking with Paul L. Dawson, I have decided to leave out the research on uniforms and concentrate on my own research of the men who fought. Maybe not as exciting and helpful for wargamers, but at least it is correct.

I am sorry if you are abandoning the uniforms. If you are worried that the uniform information might not reflect the latest scholarship, then a suitable disclaimer together with a reference to the item or information's origin should be enough.

Bill,

My goal was to give an overview and as many sources and images as possible so the reader could make up their own mind. With the officer and men, I am able to use documents from the time, use Base Leonore to back up those findings with their service records, and use regimental histories and other secondary sources for more information. On the other hand, uniforms seem to be an uncertainty that needs more work than I can provide.

However, I will try my best to see what the most suitable approach for the next divisions.

Michael

Mike,
Apologies I had not come back to this thread earlier.
I certainly had no intention of disuading you from the fine effort you have been putting in to the uniforms.

You are correct in one sense, as there is no one perfect design, unless confirmed. Why a member of the regimenal staff was deployed to Spain (Drum major) yet most of the regiment stayed in Germany is at least curious.

Perhaps identifying those from alternate theatres at least passes the knowledge you desire to give.

Much in life can overtake the real desires and interests we have, and makes us wander from topic to topic. Most wargamers experience 'history-hopping' mania at some time, or even all the time. I know i was countlessly inspired by every war movie in the '60s that came along, no matter the period.

If you have the information, then go with what you have to offer. Otherwise your own research is the most important to follow, best regards dave
++

Dave,

Do not worry you did not dissuade me. I have enjoyed my talks with Mr. Dawson, but I just do not have the documents that allow me to give the correct information. What I do have is the files on the men who fought so I will work on that. One day I will be able to visit the archives and then I will be able to add to the regimental histories and a book on the Battle of Thann. For now, work on the research on the men.

Hello everyone,

I just finished part 1 of the Officers and Soldiers of the 57e Ligne in 1809. Should be able to finish the rest by this weekend. The link is below.

link

Thanks for looking,
Michael

Super!
Tu fais quand l'état-major du général de division Saint-Hilaire?
Bon travail!
Bernard

Bernard,

Hope you are doing well! I unfortunately do not have the service records for the staff at the moment. I have collected some from Base Leonore, but will need time to find them all.