"General de Division Saint-Hilaire Division 1809" Topic

Below can be found the most updated information on the officers killed and wounded from the 4th Division at the Battle of Thann. I am not able to access the controls de troupes for the 10e Leger so I do not have any Nco's or soldier casualties. Also, the 3e Ligne casualties from the rosters do not add up to the severity of officer casualties. The early route of the regiment may have been much more critical than it has been previously reported causing officers to expose themselves to rally the faltering men. Like always, without precise information, it is all a guessing game, but with such a high officer to soldier casualty ratio, something just does not add up. Binder does give casualties for all the regiments from the April 20, 1809 return, but again these do not match what is found after my search through all the controles de troupes. So this is what I have at the moment and the list will hopefully grow with my research.

Thank you,
Michael

General Saint Hilaire's 4th Division Casualties:
Battle of Thann 19 April 1809

Total Casualties
Officers: 6 KIA, 3 MW, 68 WIA, 2 POW
NCO's & Soldiers: 151 KIA, 77 MW, 461 WIA, 2 POW, 32 MIA

10e Regiment d'infanterie Legere:
Officers: 9 WIA, 2 POW
NCO's & Soldiers:

Wounded in Action:
Capt. Joseph Davance: Shot in the left leg
Capt. Sebastien Deker: A shot from a ball that traversed the right arm and shoulder
Capt. Thivolle:
S.Lt. Charles Francois Lelarge:
S.Lt. Thomas Bresson: Shot in the left groin
S.Lt. Joseph Henri Cussac: Shot in the left leg
S.Lt. Antoine Andre Joseph Legroux: Shot in the head
S.Lt. Louis Auguste Bonnefant*: a blow from a ball that carried away his left arm. Retired due to amputation of the left arm.

Prisoner of War:
Capt. Jean Richard*: Wounded and taken prisoner of war (not returned after the end of hostilities and presumed dead)
Lt. Joseph Gerbe: Prisoner of war (Returned 17 August 1809)

3e Regiment d'infanterie Ligne:
Officers: 3 KIA, 25 WIA
NCO's & Soldiers:

Killed In Action:
1e Bat. / 3e Ce. S.Lt Joseph Alexis
2e Bat. Grenadier S.Lt Jacques Felder
2e Bat. / 3e Ce. S.Lt Louis Joseph Uzes

Wounded in Action:
2e Bat. Capt. Adjudant Major Jean Baptiste Joseph Pollosson: Shot in the left flank
3e Bat. Lt. Adjudant Major Dominique Minvielle: Wounded at the Battle of Thann
1e Bat. Grenadier Capt. Claude Vernadet: Shot in the left arm
1e Bat. / 3e Co. Capt. Jean Bernard Louis Mac-Shechy: Shot in the left forearm
2e Bat. / 1e Co. Capt. Pierre Pellaprat: Shot in the right hand
2e Bat. / 2e Co. Capt. Henri Baujeux: Shot in the right leg
2e Bat. Voltigeur Capt. Jean Claude Guy: Wounded at the Battle of Thann
3e Bat. / 2e Co. Capt. Pierre Quentin Fouquier: Wounded at the Battle of Thann
3e Bat. / 3e Co. Capt. Guillaume Parisot: Wounded at the Battle of Thann
4e Bat. Grenadier Capt. Pierre Favre: Shot in the right forearm
4e Bat. Voltigeur Capt. Joseph Girerd: Wounded at the Battle of Thann
1e Bat. Grenadier Lt. Cesar Claude Beluze: Wounded at the Battle of Thann
2e Bat./ 3e Co. Lt. Claude Francois Bolot: Shot in the left side
2e Bat. Voltigeur Lt. Dominique Marie Louis Philippe Corbin: Shot in the left leg
3e Bat. Grenadier Lt. Augustin Desplan: Wounded by a gunshot to the right thigh
3e Bat. Voltigeur Lt. Adrien Lousteau: A shot that traversed the right shoulder
4e Bat. Grenadier Lt. Jean Baptiste Pierre Destrais: Wounded at the Battle of Thann
2e Bat. Voltigeur S.Lt. Nicolas Coffin: Shot through the right wrist
3e Bat. Grenadier S.Lt. Jean Brezet: Shot in the left leg
3e Bat. / 2e Co. S.Lt. Jean Jacques Renaud: Wounded at the Battle of Thann
3e Bat. / 3e Co. S.Lt. Jean Guillaume Lacoste: A bullet that traversed the right *
3e Bat. / 4e Co. S.Lt. Antoine Leroux: Blow from a ball that required amputation of the right leg
4e Bat. Voltigeur S.Lt. Pierre Balthazare Butel: Wounded at the Battle of Thann
A La Suite S.Lt. Jean Joseph Jeandel: A shot that broke the left arm

57e Regiment d'infanterie Ligne:
Officers: 2 KIA, 1 MW, 16 WIA
NCO's & Soldiers: 79 KIA, 43 MW, 143 WIA, 4 written off rolls due to long absence in the hospital on 19 April 1809.

Killed In Action:
3e Bat. / 3e Co. Capt. Philippe Pezieux
1e Bat. / 2e Co. Lt. Antoine Alexandre Louis Marous

Mortally Wounded:
1e Bat. / 2e Co. S.Lt. Louis Francois Roasio: Died of wounds on 14 May 1809

Wounded in Action:
1e Bat. Chef de Bat. Jacques Brosset: Shot in the right thigh
1e Voltigeurs Capt. Bernard Hippolyte Pilhes: Shot in the chest
1e Bat. / 2e Co. Capt. Alexandre Massot: Shot in the chest
3e Voltigeurs Capt. Bernard Boyer: Shot in the right leg
2e Bat. / 1e Co. Capt. Pierre Bonaventure Chancel: Wounded at the Battle of Thann
3e Grenadiers Capt. Sernin Laffont: Contusion on the left arm
1e Grenadiers Capt. Jean Viala: Shot in the stomach
Capt. Simon Pevet: Shot in the left foot
3e Bat. / 2e Co. Capt. Joseph Antoine Francois Gerbal: Shot in the inside of the right thigh
2e Voltigeurs Capt. Antoine Pelenc: Received two shots from a canister round: 1.) in the lower part of the right thigh 2.) In the lower abdomen
2e Grenadiers Capt. Laurent Bertet: Wounded at the Battle of Thann
1e Bat. / 3e Co. Lt. Melchior Peronnier: Sabre blow to the right forearm
2e Grenadiers Lt. Rene Claude Jean Raverat: Shot in the right hand (broken hand)
A La Suite Lt. Claude Saint-Cyr: Wounded at the Battle of Thann
3e Voltigeurs S. Lt. Joseph Olivier Dehemery: Wounded at the Battle of Thann
1e Voltigeurs S. Lt. Charles Basset: Received seven saber wounds to the 1.) left cheek 2.) lower lip 3.) right shoulder 4.) right hip 5.) right thigh 6.) left shin 7.) left leg

72e Regiment d'infanterie Ligne:
Officers: 1 MW, 11 WIA
NCO's & Soldiers: 62 KIA, 22 MW, 238 WIA, 1 POW, 29 written off rolls due to long absence in the hospital on 19 April 1809*.

Mortally Wounded:
S.Lt. Louis Ambroise: Died of wounds on 10 May 1809

Wounded in Action:
Capt. Louis Mathurin Constant Metton:
Capt. Jean Baptiste Gaillard
Capt. Michel Marie Lefizelier
Capt. Francois Poirier
Capt. Germain Bardout (ADC to General Ficactor on 23/04/1809)
Lt. Francois Augustin Bertrand Marigny: Shot in the right foot
Lt. Moulin
Lt. Jean Francois Royer
S.Lt. Francois Philippe Chambelland: Shot in the left thigh
S.Lt. Richard Devienne
S.Lt. Jean Jacques Marce: Shot in the right leg

105e Regiment d'infanterie Ligne:
Officers: 1 KIA, 1 MW, 7 WIA
NCO's & Soldiers: 10 KIA, 14 MW, 81 WIA, 1 POW

Killed in Action:
S.Lt. Honore Habert

Mortally Wounded:
Capt. Jean Isidore Habert: Died of wounds on 25 June 1809

Wounded in Action:
2e Grenadier Capt. Henry Maussion
Lt. Augustin Leclerq
Lt. Lespinasse
Lt. Antoine Maillet: Shot in the left foot
Lt. Pierre Silvestre De Mostolac: Shot in the superior part of the right leg
Lt. Francois Pichon
Lt. Francois Daudier

That's incredibly detailed information. Where did you find it?

Hello Widowson,

This is my research on the battle, but the majority of the officer's names come from A. Martinien Tableaux par corps et par batailles des officiers tués et blessés pendant les guerres de l'empire, 1805-1815. Then I used these names to check Base Leonore link to see if any of these men were awarded the LdH. Once I found one of the names I checked through the pages and found their service record, which shows how they were wounded sometimes. Then I referenced the XP and YP records from the French archives that I have in my possession to see the service record and any wounds received by the officers. I was able to find a few new names to add to the list using these. Only the 10e Legere actually lists the officers in a seperate document in the XB files for the killed and wounded per month. When it comes to the NCOs and soldiers I used the controles de troupes and searched the 500-page x 3 books per regiment to get the numbers of killed and wounded. This was the most time consuming but rewarding. 57e Ligne book 2 link

I really enjoyed the research which helped keep me busy during this quarantine. I learned a lot about the battle and found some new interesting things. As you can tell I am missing some details, but as I keep searching and get more records from the archives, I will add to the list. When reading through some of the officer's service records, you start to understand how tough and loyal to their duty these men were. Btw I don't speak French so this has been a great way to learn a new language at least when it comes to my reading skills.

Hope that helps. I might write a post on my blog about how to use databases for research at some point.

Michael

Yes – a good idea how to use databases, but you also could publish it here as well, as usual congratulations for all your hard work

von W,

Great idea. I will try to find a few examples of how to find officers and soldiers on Base Leonore first. I am moving this weekend and with school I might be a little slow. However, I have researched and recorded more information in the last 6 months than in the past five years so I am grateful for everything.

Thank you,
Michael

Michael,

That is truly amazing research. My hat's off to you for very hard and tedious work. I once wanted to be a serious researcher of the middle ages, but lacked the patience to learn medieval latin, which would have been required. So I left it to the experts!

Latin sounds tough! Thankfully with technology it makes translating things easier. I def need to learn more French, since I am sure I am missing a lot of small interesting details!

The hardest part was learning how to read old handwriting, but thankfully my wife is taking classes for lettering so a lot of the letters are very similar. I stole one of her sheets and used it as a guide! History and research is my passion, but recently I have been turned down by so many jobs for history and I even reached out to the Civil War Museum in Richmond, VA and they said nope. Frustrating, but I will finish my masters in a few years and then teach, write a book, and visit Bavaria and other places to get a better feel for the battle.

S.Lt. Louis Auguste Bonnefant*: a blow from a ball that carried away his left arm. Retired due to amputation of the left arm.

Just wanted to show how I was able to find the descriptions of those killed, wounded, and captured. First is the list of all officers that were casualties at the Battle of Thann from the 3rd Corps 1809. Taken from A. Martinien Tableaux par corps et par batailles des officiers tués et blessés pendant les guerres de l'empire, 1805-1815.

Next, I checked both 2YB564 and 2YB566, which contain the service records for the officers of the 10e Leger. Sadly, any officer who was wounded and retired prior to 1811 when the second book started, the information is lacking for the 1809 campaign. Here is both records for
S.Lt. Antoine Andre Joseph Legroux: Shot in the head

as well as the second entry

Next, I checked the XB584 which are the administrative books for the regiment in 1809. On the right are the officer casualties for April 1809 and the left for May 1809. Legroux was wounded on April 19th serving in the 1st Batt, 1e Company. You can will notice that from April 19-23rd, the 10e Legere took a large number of officer casualties, mainly from the Battle of Eckmuhl.

Since he was not awarded an LdH his service record can not be confirmed in Base Leonore. However, with three reports citing his wounding at the battle, I felt the information was sufficient enough.

Hope that makes sense of how I found the description of the officers and their wounds.

Michael

I was able to finish completely the 72e Ligne! This regiment was lacking a Colonel and had two of its three Chef de bats only arriving at the regiment a month before the battle. Even lacking officers and new commanders it still performed well and helped stop the Austrian counter-attack. This is the only regiment that I have no uniform details at all.

72e Regiment d'infanterie Ligne:
Officers: 1 MW, 11 WIA
NCO's & Soldiers: 62 KIA, 22 MW, 238 WIA, 1 POW, 29 written off rolls due to long absence in the hospital on 19 April 1809*.

Mortally Wounded:
1e Bat./ 3e Co. S.Lieut. Louis Ambroise: Died of wounds on 10 May 1809

Wounded in Action:
1e Voltigeurs Capt. Louis Mathurin Constant Metton: Shot in the right breast (nipple)
3e Bat./ 4e Co. Capt. Jean Baptiste Gaillard: Shot in the right leg
1e Grenadiers Capt. Michel Marie Lefizelier: Shot in the left leg
4e Voltigeurs Capt. Francois Poirier: Shot in the right thigh
3e Bat./ 3e Co. Capt. Germain Bardoux : Shot in the left arm
4e Voltigeurs Lieut. Francois Augustin Bertrand Marigny: Shot in the right foot
1e Bat./ 1e Co. Lieut. Jacques Louis Moulin: Shot in the left hip
3e Bat./1e Co. S.Lieut. Jean Francois Royer: Shot in the left leg
2e Bat./ 4e Co. S.Lieut. Francois Philippe Chambelland: Shot in the left thigh
1e Bat./ 1e Co. S.Lieut. Richard Adrien Devienne: Shot in the right forearm
3e Voltigeurs S.Lieut. Jean Jacques Marce: Shot in the right leg

Fantastic research and artwork! I am truly enjoying reading through your posts here! thank you for sharing all this!

Thanks Dr. Jeckyll,

I have slowed down a lot since I am in grad school and trying to get a job as a teacher. I will try to post as much as I can, but most likely here and not on my blog. I was able to find a lot of great stories about the men who fought, which was my goal.

Michael

Marbot- this is an excellent enterprise- look forward to seeing updates as and when the priorities of life allow….

Reallysameseneffeasbefore,

This week I have been able to finish majority of my work so I might be able to add a small update on the Cavalry battle on the far left of the 3rd Corps called Combat of Dunzling(Dinzling). Much smaller and better resources available have made it easier to find majority of the information.

I appreciate the comments.
Michael

A little update. This regiment was not part of Saint-Hilaire's division, but instead part of Friant's. However, I wanted a break and was curious to see if a regiment who was supposed to be in reserve had any men killed or wounded. The 111e Ligne spent most of the battle in reserve, but as you can see from below the voltigeurs, especially those of the 3e Batallion were in contact with the enemy. Two facts that I found very interesting 1. That so many men were shot in the hand! 2. Men received saber and bayonet wounds, making it seem like the regiment fought hand to hand with the Austrians. This is the first regiment I have encountered on the controles that details the wounds of the men. I decided it was important to show a wide variety of wounds. No officers are listed as killed or wounded, but I still do not have the YB and XB files for the regiment so this could change.

You will notice that most men's names are of Italian descent because this was formed by men of the Piedmontese Regiments. Here is the history of the regiment from the Frederic Berjaud website. link

111e Regiment d'infanterie Ligne
Officers: 0
NCO's & Soldiers: 4 KIA, 1 MW, 55 WIA

NCO's & Soldiers

Killed in Action:
2e Bat./ 4e Co. Fusilier Paul Fornerone
3e Voltigeurs Sergent-Major Jean Panissa
3e Voltigeurs Caporal Pierre Eusebietti
3e Voltigeurs Pierre Masin

Mortally Wounded in Action:
3e Bat./ 2e Co. Fusilier Paul Eydalin: Died of wounds on 29 July 1809 (Höchstadt)*

Wounded in Action:
1e Voltigeurs Jean Baptiste Clerico: Shot in the right leg
2e Bat./ 1e Co. Fusilier Jean Baptiste Franchino: Shot in the left leg
2e Bat./ 4e Co. Fusilier Pierre Rambaud: Saber cut to the abdomen
2e Bat./ 4e Co. Fusilier Pierre Stroppa: Shot in the right arm
2e Voltigeurs Joseph Clerico: Shot in the left hand
2e Voltigeurs Joseph Barthelemi Borgarello: Shot in the head
2e Voltigeurs Francois Fiorio: Shot in the left arm
2e Voltigeurs Joseph Agnese: Shot in the left hand
2e Voltigeurs Barthelemi Castellini: Shot in the neck
3e Grenadiers Joseph Giaretta: Shot in the left knee
3e Grenadiers Laurent Jembonetto: Shot in the right leg
3e Grenadiers Michel Milan: Bayonet wound to the right hand and shot in the right leg
3e Bat./ 1e Co. Fusilier Francois Appendino: Shot in the chest
3e Bat./ 1e Co. Fusilier Charles Antoine Costa: Shot in the right shoulder
3e Bat./ 1e Co. Fusilier Antoine Biangin: Shot in the right thigh and a cannister round to the chest
3e Bat./ 2e Co. Fusilier Caporal Gabriel Valentin Allard: Shot in the right leg*
3e Bat./ 2e Co. Fusilier Caporal Christophe Gaspart: Shot in the left hand*
3e Bat./ 2e Co. Fusilier Tambour Pierre Garron: Shot in the right arm*
3e Bat./ 2e Co. Fusilier Antoine Lubonis: Shot in the right arm*
3e Bat./ 2e Co. Fusilier Francois Bistolfi: Shot in the left leg*
3e Bat./ 2e Co. Fusilier Fusilier Pierre Eurici-bel hommes: Shot in the chest*
3e Bat./ 2e Co. Fusilier Pierre Garolla: Shot in the right thigh*
3e Bat./ 2e Co. Fusilier Jean Baptiste dit. Romano Taramino: Shot in the left leg*
3e Bat./ 2e Co. Fusilier Jean Rostagno: Shot in the right thigh*
3e Bat./ 2e Co. Fusilier Caporal Gabriel Valentin Allard: Shot in the right leg*
3e Bat./ 2e Co. Fusilier Jean Baptiste Martin: Shot in the left hand*
3e Bat./ 3e Co. Fusilier Caporal Dominique Risso: Shot in the left arm
3e Bat./ 3e Co. Fusilier Jean Baptiste Ruffino: Shot in the left hand
3e Bat./ 3e Co. Fusilier Gaspard Barbero: Shot in the left arm
3e Bat./ 3e Co. Fusilier Jacques Michel Druetto: Shot in the right hand
3e Bat./ 3e Co. Fusilier Dominique Martin: Shot in the right leg
3e Bat./ 3e Co. Fusilier Charles Bavesio: Shot in the left hand
3e Bat./ 3e Co. Fusilier Joseph Barthelemi Scaglia: Shot in the left shoulder
3e Bat./ 3e Co. Fusilier Antoine Gallo: Shot in the left hand
3e Bat./ 4e Co. Fusilier Jean Joseph Bertier: Shot in the hand
3e Bat./ 4e Co. Fusilier Joseph Pautasso: Shot in the right arm
3e Bat./ 4e Co. Fusilier Laurent Ferruccino: Shot in the left thigh
3e Bat./ 4e Co. Fusilier Charles Demolis: Shot in the right hand
3e Bat./ 4e Co. Fusilier Joseph Menzio: Shot in the left hand
3e Bat./ 4e Co. Fusilier Christophe Colli: Shot in the left arm
3e Voltigeurs Cornet Gaetan Valin: Saber cut on the right hand
3e Voltigeurs Bernard Manello: Shot in the head
3e Voltigeurs Dominique Rivoira: Shot in the right arm
3e Voltigeurs Pierre Frua: Shot in right hand
3e Voltigeurs Joseph Bonino: Shot in the left hand
3e Voltigeurs Michel Andre Falletto: Shot in the head
3e Voltigeurs Michel Antoine Crivello: Shot in the right buttocks
3e Voltigeurs Jean Vincenti: Shot in the left arm
3e Voltigeurs Joseph Geninat: Shot in the left hand
3e Voltigeurs Pierre Antoine Messo: Shot in the left hand
3e Voltigeurs Joseph Bergogno: Bayonet wound to the right hand
3e Voltigeurs Joseph Plato: Shot in the left leg
3e Voltigeurs Laurent Fassino: Shot in the right hand
3e Voltigeurs Charles Vial: Shot in the head
3e Voltigeurs Antoine Salomon: Shot in the left hand
3e Voltigeurs Jean Baptiste Fassiotto: Shot in the right hand

* Men of the 3e Batallion 2e Company were all wounded on April 21,1809 but listed as the Batte of Thann. However, this regiment's controles constantly rotates Ratisbonne, Landshut, and Eckmuhl for the names of the battles from April 19-23. Sadly, there is no real pattern to the different names. However, Thann is the only mentioned for these men and is referred to as an affair instead of a battle.

Marbot,

You'll find that history is a hard nut to crack, as far as a career goes. You better not like money very much, and you'll be lucky to find a tenured teaching job. Best of luck. But if you can manage that, you can at least write on the side.

Both my parents were teachers. One brother was a substitute. It was all he could get, but couldn't live on the money, so turned to other pursuits.

Widowson,

I laughed out loud! I understand it is tough, but I use to coach high school football and lacrosse for 5 years so that is a little extra money and I was a personal trainer for 15 years. I worked with trainers who were teachers and trained to make extra money. I believe my summers will be put towards traveling and historical research. My wife is a very talented engineer who speaks three languages. As my friends like to say I am playing above my draft pick!

Widowson,

I should have mentioned I totally agree with you! Right now I am looking at middle school history. Hopefully, influence younger students to learn to think for themselves and not just get all of their information from different social media platforms out there.

Should be able to post next week on the 10e Legere and finish their uniforms for the Tete de Colonne, Carabiners, and Colonel Berthezene.

Michael

Just a small update. 10e Legere Carabiniers

Also below the list of officer casualties

10e Regiment d'infanterie Legere
Officers: 9 WIA, 2 POW
NCO's & Soldiers:

Officers

Wounded in Action:
3e Carabiners S.Lieut. Thomas Bresson: Shot in the left groin
1e Bat./ 1e Co. S.Lieut. Antoine Andre Joseph Legroux: Shot in the head
2e Bat./ 1e Co. Capit. Joseph Davance: Shot twice in the left leg
2e Bat./ 1e Co. S.Lieut. Charles Francois Lelarge:
2e Bat./ 4e Co. S.Lieut. Joseph Henri Cussac: Shot in the left leg
2e Bat./ 2e Co. S.Lieut. Louis Auguste Bonnefant*: A blow from cannonball that carried away his left arm. Retired due to amputation
3e Bat./ 1e Co. Capit. Sebastien Deker: A shot from a ball that traversed the right arm and shoulder
3e Bat./ 3e Co. Capit. Etienne Thivolle:

Prisoner of War:
1e Carabiners Lieut. Joseph Gerbe: Prisoner of war (Returned 17 August 1809)
4e Carabiners Capit. Jean Richard: Wounded and taken prisoner of war (not returned after the end of hostilities and presumed dead)*

*S.Lieut. Bonnefant is not listed in Martienen's list of officers wounded on April 19, 1809.
*Capit. Richard is listed as wounded and captured on April 19th on two different list and on April 22nd once on a seperate list.

Last by not least Colonel Pierre Berthezene of the 10e Legere.

His portrait below slightly later as a General

Also, below a very interesting petit soldats of the 10e Legere with the later(?) lighter blue uniforms for the musicians and a glimpse of the possible uniform for the Tambour-major and caporal-tambour to the far left.

Michael

Hello everyone,

I updated my blog with information on the 10e Legere during the battle. Will do a follow up one on Colonel Berthezene soon as well. Then most likely moving on to a few Austrian regiments.

link

high quality research again, thanks for sharing it.

Fascinating stuff – many thanks Michael

Thanks for the kind comments. This has been my covid-19 project and hopefully later in life when I can visit Europe and the battlefield a book. I enjoy showing lesser-known officers and common soldiers. Sometimes we see just a number for killed and wounded, but by getting to know who they are and their injuries, I feel I have better understanding of the battle.

Superbe!
Bravo!
Pour le 72e de Ligne: Le Hors-série n°19 de tradition magazine consacré à l'infanterie française 1791-1815 donne effectivement deux colonels pour ce régiment en 1809 :
Meunier Saint-Clair et ensuite Lafitte.
Auriez-vous le nom des 3 chefs de bataillon de ce régiment pendant la bataille de Thann?
Je me permets de rajouter un lien vers ma bataille de Thann que je joue actuellement au 28mm avec mon fils.
link
Cordialement
Bernard1809

Bonjour Bernard1809! J'apprécie votre réponse et vraiment profiter de votre lien avec votre bataille que vous jouez avec votre fils. Votre carte m'a permis de mieux comprendre la bataille. Votre travail est très détaillé! J'ai lu récemment les mémoires du colonel Plaige ainsi que des recherches sur le 17e Ligne. Certains des noms qui sont mentionnés ne sont plus le même nom afin que je puisse être confus à certains moments!

Pour le 72e Ligne, le colonel Meunier Saint-Clair est en fait devenu le colonel d'un régiment de Legere, je crois le 31e Legere. Il a été créé colonel de la 72e Ligne le 3 mars, mais n'est jamais arrivé. Le chef de batallion Lafitte du 10e Legere fut blessé à la bataille d'Eckmuhl et ne prend le commandement du régiment qu'après la bataille du 23 avril 1809. Il semble que le régiment n'avait que 3 chefs de bataillons et aucun colonel jusqu'à quelques jours après la bataille de Thann. Chef de Bataillon Marboeuf semble avoir été en charge du régiment comme vous pouvez le voir d'en bas avec sa signature en tant que chef de bataillon commandant le 72e Ligne. Les trois chefs étaient Marboeuf 1e Bat. Barras 2e Bat. et Bial 3e. Bat selon le rapport de situation daté du 1er mai 1809. Pour rendre les choses encore plus confuses, le chef de bataillon Jean Bial, dans ses mémoires, dit avoir vu le colonel Ficatier à son arrivée en Bavière le 10 avril 1809 !

Information par Meunier Saint-Clair, (Benoit)

Born: 28 November 1768
Colonel: 17 November 1808 (2e Regiment d'Infanterie Legere)
Colonel: 22 July 1809 (31e Regiment d'Infanterie Legere)
General-de-Brigade: 4 August 1813
Died: 4 January 1845

English:
Hello Bernard1809! I appreciate your response and really enjoy your link to your battle you are playing with you son. Your map has allowed me to get a better understanding of the battle as well. I have been reading recently Colonel Plaige's memoirs as well as researching the 17e Ligne. Some of the names that are mentioned are no longer the same name so I can get confused at times!

For the 72e Ligne, Colonel Meunier Saint-Clair actually became the Colonel of a Legere regiment I believe the 31e Legere. He was created Colonel of the 72e Ligne on 3 March but never arrived. Chef de batallion Lafitte from the 10e Legere was wounded at the battle of Eckmuhl and did not take command of the regiment until after the battle on 23 April 1809. It seems the regiment only had 3 chefs de battalions and no Colonel until a few days after the Battle of Thann. Chef de Battalion Marboeuf seems to have been in charge of the regiment as you can see from below with his signing as chef de battalion commanding the 72e Ligne. The three chefs were Marboeuf 1e Bat. Barras 2e Bat. and Bial 3e. Bat according to the situational report dated 1 May 1809. To make things even more confusing, Chef de battalion Jean Bial in his memoirs said he saw Colonel Ficatier when he arrived in Bavaria on 10 April 1809! Also, I am attaching a map that is slightly more detailed than the 1812 map. link You can see by this map the woods were thicker

Extraordinaire!

Auriez-vous les prénoms des chefs de bataillon Marboeuf et Barras?
Cordialement
Bernard1809

François Marboeuf: Blesse: cuisse droite emportée d'un coup de boulet 6 July 1809, Retired 23 August 1809. (Right thigh carried away by a cannonball July 6, 1809) The documents I have show he was in charge of the regiment from at least 1 Jan 1809 link

Jean Pierre Bial (the XB file shows Jean François Bial and Jean Pierre) link

Gilbert Barras. Mort 5 July 1809 (died July 5, 1809)

Hello Bernard,

I have tried to sign up for your forum for the last two days, but I have not been given permission yet. Could you speak with an admin so I can post more information there? I will leave here some of the information I saw that you have asked for. Situational Report 1 June 1809 2e Corps. Claparede's division

Salut MarbotsChasseurs
Je préviens tout de suite les administrateurs de mon site.
Tu pourras réessayer de t'inscrire.
Avec le nom "MarbotsChasseurs"?
Cordialement
Bernard1809

MarbotsChasseurs: Great stuff. Thank you for posting all this.

John

Marulaz1,

Thank you for the comment! I am posting below all the Colonels and the chef de batallions for our French friend Bernard as I still can not log onto the other site! The links by their names are the Base Leonore files. Most of these men had the LdH, but not all can be found on the database.

19 April 1809

10e Legere
Colonel Pierre Berthezène
1e Chef de batallion Michel Pascal Lafitte link
2e Chef de batallion Pierre Antelme
3e Chef de batallion Jean Charles Marechal

3e Ligne
Colonel Laurent Schobert link
1e Chef de batallion Jean Baptiste Laffithe link
2e Chef de batallion Andre Motte
3e Chef de batallion Alexandre Grandidier

57e Ligne
Colonel Jean Louis Charriere (44) link
1e Chef de batallion Jacques Brosset (33)(W) link
2e Chef de batallion Martiry Cazeneuve (46) link
3e Chef de batallion Jean Louis Baillon (42)

72e Ligne
Colonel (Vacant)
1e Chef de batallion Francois Marboeuf (Acting Commander) link
2e Chef de batallion Gilbert Barras
3e Chef de batallion Jean Pierre Bial link

105e Ligne
Colonel Pierre Marie Isidore De Blanmont link
1e Chef de batallion Casimir Honoré Louis Lescaudey link
2e Chef de batallion Louis René Rateau link
3e Chef de batallion Jean François Saltet link

Hope this helps.
Michael

Toujours extraordinaire!
Aurais-tu le même rapport de situation de la division Saint Hilaire?
Les administrateurs sont informés de ta demande…Réessaye de t'inscrire!
Bernard

Bernard,

Are you looking for the report of how many men were in the division or the names of the men who served as Generals and staff officers? Also, I tried again to create an account. Let's hope a third time is a charm. Most likely my fault!

The names of the men who served as Generals and staff officers. Division Saint-Hilaire.
Merci
Bernard

Bernard,

Il y a un léger problème. J'ai les rapports situationnels pour juin et juillet, mais malheureusement Saint-Hilaire est déjà mort. Je vais vous montrer le personnel de la division de Grandjean où je suppose que la plupart des anciens membres du 4e Corps ont servi au cours des derniers mois. De Stabenrath a été blessé à Aspern-Essling donc il devrait être le commandant de la 2e brigade de la 4e Division. Si quelqu'un d'autre est au courant de l'endroit où ses ADC sont allés s'il vous plaît laissez-moi savoir!

C'est probablement ce que vous recherchez avec le major Boudin qui compte maintenant sur le personnel du commandant adjudant Chaponnel(Joseph Charbonnel?). Cliquez avec le bouton droit et appuyez sur la vue pour obtenir une image plus proche.

There is a slight problem. I have the Situational reports for June and July, but sadly Saint-Hilaire is already dead. I will show you the staff for Grandjean's division where I am guessing most of the 4th Corps former staff served during the later months. De Stabenrath was wounded at Aspern-Essling so he should be the 2nd Brigade commander for the 4th Division. If someone else is aware of where his ADCs went please let me know!

This is probably what you are looking for with now Major Boudin found on the staff of Adjutant Commandant Chaponnel(Joseph Charbonnel?) staff. Right-click and press view to get a closer image.

2nd Corps 1 July 1809

2nd Corps, 3e Division General Grandjean 1 June 1809

2nd Corps, 3e Division General Grandjean 26 July 1809

Some portraits of the men who fought.

General de Division Saint-Hilaire

General de Brigade Lorencez

General de Brigade de Stabenrath

Colonel Pierre Berthezene 10e Legere

Colonel Laurent Schobert 3e Ligne

Statue of the Colonel De Blanmont 105e Ligne

72e Ligne Chef de batallion Jean Pierre Bial

Alors?
Tu as réussi à t'inscrire en France?
Bernard

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Napoléon et l'Autriche: La campagne de 1809 chez Copernic
Ce livre montre les carabiniers du 10e léger en bonnet d'oursin…
Bernard1809

I used Bucquoy uniform plates and petit soldats for the 10e Legere. I do not any inspections or reviews that get a definitive answer on what type of headgear the Carabiniers wore in 1809. Rigo states that the 3e Ligne had enough bearskins for the first battalion and a painting done in 1810 shows the 17e Ligne in bearskins as well. Also, below period drawing from the time period showing the 17e Ligne grenadier wearing a shako and holding his bearskin, possibly for full dress? 17e Ligne at the battle of Landshut charging with General Mouton painted by Louis Hersent in 1810. I am not sure why the painting has the grenadiers on the right when the original has them on the left.

J'ai utilisé bucquoy plaques uniformes et petits soldats pour le 10e Léger. Je n'ai pas d'inspections ou d'examens qui obtiennent une réponse définitive sur le type de couvre-chef que portaient les Carabins en 1809. Rigo affirme que la 3e Ligne avait suffisamment de peaus d'ours pour le premier bataillon et qu'un tableau réalisé en 1810 montre également la ligne 17e en peau d'ours. 17e Ligne à la bataille de Landshut charge avec le général Mouton peint par Louis Hersent en 1810. Je ne sais pas pourquoi la peinture a les grenadiers sur la droite quand l'original les a sur la gauche. Aussi, en dessous de la période de dessin de la période montrant le 17e Ligne grenadier portant un shako et tenant sa peau d'ours, peut-être pour la robe complète?

Below is the email I received from the admin of your site.
Votre compte est actuellement inactif et devra être approuvé par un
administrateur avant que vous puissiez vous connecter. Un autre e-mail sera envoyé lorsque ce
s'est produit.

No second email yet on any of my three attempts.

Michael

>>I am not sure why the painting _?

Your photo is reversed.
Having photographed the original myself, I can attest.
As to historical accuracy- these legere are cited as the 13eme elsewhere; and the flag, ahem, well… so much for contemporary experts (we are told to rely upon…)

P.Charrié documented the 3e de ligne/ 1er bon having enough bearskins for them in 1804/05, but not the other two battalions (I've modelled the regiment as such).

The naive print has either not enough gold, or too much. Two strips of lace on the shako, nor is the rank stripe correct (should be gold on a scarlet base showing as a border, not in centre).
Possibly a mareschal-des-logis-chef, but I'd expect to see rank stripes on both sleeves AND long service chevrons in scarlet or gold (a non regulation variation), along with the addition of a fringe of gold in the epaulette so adequately illustrated otherwise.
And I doubt both shako and bearskin would be available- these were not the 'Garde'; nor would they have two plumes- all the accessories were swapped between dresses as necessary.
cheers d

Self-portrait of Alexis Picard 13e Legere. The uniform seems close to the painting, but this was from c.1805-1806.

this self portrait is more of 1808 and later – in 1805 / 08 the shako had a plume at its side, also I see quite huge epaulettes, which were much smaller earlier.

By the way the photo of the French storming the bridge is the wrong side around.

Pour le dessin naïf, il s'agit d'un sergent-major de grenadier d'un régiment d'infanterie de ligne.
Le grade de maréchal des logis chef est réservé aux troupes montées.

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Le personnage étant de profil, on ne distingue pas le grade sur la manche gauche ni les brisques d'ancienneté (si il en possédait).
Les épaulettes devraient être écarlates et or, mais c'est très difficile à représenter aussi la majorité des dessins de sous-officiers des grenadiers sont dessinés avec des épaulettes rouges.
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Ici un sergent de grenadiers.

Bernard1809
Ancien maréchal des logis-chef de l'armée française.

Hello everyone,

I just finished a post about the 72e Ligne and their officer shortages prior to the start of the 1809 campaign. As noted in my post, I am unaware of any uniform details of the regiment during this period. Any help from more informed people would be greatly appreciated.

link

Until now I never considered naming the officers in my miniature units. I don't know if I should thank you or curse you. LOL.

Widowson,

I laughed out loud! I saw a blogger who painted a dozen or so 28mm Roman Centurions with their real names and background stories, and it inspired me! Also, after reading the exceptional Terry Crowdy book on the 9e Legere, I felt these men deserved their stories to be told.

I have created fake bios for some of my AWI militia. It started out just as a game to keep another part of my brain engaged while I was painting, but now I sometimes find that the bios are driving how I depict the figures.

Je vous donne mon avis personnel:
J'aime l'Histoire, mais j'aime aussi les petites histoires et ce sont les hommes qui font l'Histoire, c'est peut-être pour cela que j'aime bien "fouiller" les batailles que je prépare.
Les sempiternelles rencontres entre 2 avant-gardes l'une rouge l'autre bleue commandées par un général "Bon" "Moyen" ou "Mauvais" ne m'intéressent guère …
Il n'y a pas que le jeu, les recherches historiques sont tout autant intéressantes!

One Division I always wanted to build but never got around to it. Sorry now that I didnt.

John

[99…]
>>Self-portrait of Alexis Picard 13e Legere. The uniform seems close to the painting, but this was from c.1805-1806.

Wow! A predecesor of Captain Picard no doubt! ‌
Where did you find him Michael?
I'd be honoured to obtain a hi-res copy for personal use, given it is my 'core' interest period. I'd like to examine the fine details of his painting.

I don't see any conflict for the dates given, as such latitude existed amongst the legere anything is possible given the variations we know of. Despite my own 'reconstructions' for modelling 25mm legere with lh plumes etc., I don't discount the norm of this. (There's that other thread…) How can you discount a 'first hand- original' artifact when many blind secondary sources are shown to be so wrong at times?

On this I've agonised all year- over the 'best presentation' of an early Empire/ post Consular reconstruction in model form and features for my all famous 10e Legere Regimen (Colonel Pouzet)– the conquerors of the Pratzeberg!, (under GBD Morand- General since 1800).
I've more or less reconciled the form of 'elites' and the officers/ generals command (both a mounted and dismounted version) as my chasseurs all wear drooping green feather plumes on left of shako.

As there's not one shred of documented uniform information before the 1807 campaign, 'new issue' and two significant uniform changes by 1811, none of which include bearskins nor colpacks it is a remarkably 'plain' French legere unit. The single uniform distinction of note being the acquisition of brass metal scales on elites epaulette bodies- almost certainly a 'local' German garrison/ captured equipment resource.

>>Le grade de maréchal des logis chef est réservé aux troupes montées.
Is it? Sorry my mistake. I'd always believed that a 'senior' sergent was appointed 'chef' of NCOs in all corps. But I haven't looked up Malibran either. As to the rest, we agree. But a single 'rank' stripe on the right sleeve neither makes sense, or was this another 'specialist' I've forgotten about.

And yes, although while I shan't be naming individual soldiers, as I pointed out in my model painting update thread I am recreating the 'command structure' on a 1:1 basis. Named individuals and known to exist 'support' characters (ADCs/ guides/trompettes/ servants etc.).

regards
dave
[I leave to another the honour of being poster 100__ *smile*]

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A droite, les carabiniers du 10e léger semblent bien en shakos!
Bernard