"need T/O&E US Army Combat Engineer Bn Germany 1986-88" Topic

Hi gents, looking for help piecing together a T/O&E for US Army Division level Combat Engineer Battalions in Germany during 1986 – 1988 timeframe. I'm pretty sure there are a number of guys here that served during that time in the combat brigades that might be able to remember. Or if anyone can post a link to better sources than what I've been able to find it would be much appreciated.

Was the M9 ACE used during this time? Or was it fielded just after (1989+)

Did Battalion hold any special equipment or was it mostly in the Engineer companies?

This is what I have so far:

Engineer Company
Company HQ (various HMMWV & trucks)

Equipment Section
4x Dump Truck
2x SEE: Small Emplacement Excavator
2x TPU: (what is this?)
1x Loader: (what is this?)
4x MICLIC: is this just the trailer or does it include the M113 too?

3x Line Platoons with 3x Squads each, 9 Squads total
So how many M113's in a Platoon?

Assault & Barrier Platoon
PLT HQ
Assault Barrier Section
2x CEV
2x M548 (what did they haul?)
1x HEMMT (what did it haul?)

Assault Bridge Section
3x AVLB
1x M88

I didn't enlist until '91, but it looks pretty good based on my recollection. ACEs were fielded starting in 1985, I believe, but that might have been different for units in Germany.

From memory:

Company HQ (various HMMWV & trucks)
1x M577 TOC
1x M113A2 (CO's track)
3x HMMWVs (CO, XO, and 1SG)
1x M929 5-ton dump truck (Supply and Armory sections)
2x M548s (what did they haul?) Usually concertina wire and pickets, but sometimes mines and demo.
4x MICLIC: is this just the trailer or does it include the M113 too? Just the trailer and launch apparatus. Line squads would be tasked to pull them with their M113s.

3x Sapper Platoons:
1x M113A2 for the Platoon Leader
3x M113A2s carrying a sapper dismount squad each
2x HMMWVs (2LT, PSG)

So, a total of 12x M113s and 6x HMMWVs for the line platoons.

Assault & Barrier Platoon (later re-named as Assault & Obstacles Platoon)
PLT HQ
2x HMMWVs (1LT, PSG)

2x Assault Sections:
2x CEV
1x AVLB (We only had two per company, but it might have been three back in those days. These were part of the Assault Sections.

Barrier (Obstacles) Section
8x M9 ACEs
2x SEE: Small Emplacement Excavators
2x HEMMTs (what did it haul?) (Usually pallets of ammo, especially HEP rounds for the CEVs' 165mm breaching guns)

M88s were battalion assets, not company assets. I was never in a combat engineer company that had an organic M88 on its MTOE.

Thanks Javelin! That really helps.

What threw me off was the "TPU", what is that? Only thing I can think of is something like "Tank, Pump, Unit", maybe for water?

I'm assuming the "Loader" is just a Front End Loader?

The Engineer Platoon Sergeant didn't ride in a track?

CEV's, by the time I got in (a few years after you) I never actually saw a CEV working in the field (just parked in the Eng motorpool), do you recall how they would have been used other than for urban combat?

What about: MAB Mobile Assault Bridge, any of those in the Divisional battalions?

Brigade/Battalion Slice: I'm assuming each Engineer Company was sliced to each Brigade, and an Engineer Platoon was sliced to each Line Battalion? (for some reason I'm remembering always having Eng tracks attached to our Tank/Mech Team, but maybe I'm combining STX lane memories with the larger FTX training)

Oh, one last thing I always wanted to ask, can that M9 ACE go any slower!

No problem!

I really have no idea what a TPU is. "Tank pump unit" sounds as good as any, but fuel trucks were battalion-level assets, so I'm not sure what that would mean for a company MTOE.

I'm assuming the "Loader" is just a Front End Loader?

Your guess is as good as mine! IIRC, all the loaders we had belonged to HHC and were only used in the motor pool.

The Engineer Platoon Sergeant didn't ride in a track?

Nope! The PSG was usually riding in a HMMWV doing "beans & bullets" runs for the troops. Otherwise, he might ride into battle in the 1st Squad's track, but he didn't have one of his own.

CEV's, by the time I got in (a few years after you) I never actually saw a CEV working in the field (just parked in the Eng motorpool), do you recall how they would have been used other than for urban combat?

Oh, yeah! Their primary role was breaching obstacles and destroying bunkers. The 165mm breaching gun fired a massive, slow High Explosive Plastic round that you could actually see fly downrange; it's max effective range was only 900 meters. But when that thing touched down, it made a hella big explosion.

Our CEV crews trained on antitank gunnery, but they were not expected to engage enemy tanks except as a last resort. The HEP gun was extraordinary at taking out bunkers, berms, abatis, and cribs. At Fort Irwin, we used old decommissioned M114 scout tracks for target practice, and I remember watching a CEV obliterate one with a HEP round.

We also used the CEVs for lane-proofing after breaching a minefield with a MICLIC or line main.

What about: MAB Mobile Assault Bridge, any of those in the Divisional battalions?

If you mean the floating bridge units, my experience in 1AD and 2ID was that the Division had separate bridging companies independent of the combat engineer battalions. There was one (the 50th Engineer Company (Assault Float Bridge)) at Munsan just south of the Imjin-gang river, which was just south of the DMZ. If the NKPA blew the bridges across the Imjin-gang, then they would be tasked with putting a float bridge across it.

Brigade/Battalion Slice: I'm assuming each Engineer Company was sliced to each Brigade, and an Engineer Platoon was sliced to each Line Battalion? (for some reason I'm remembering always having Eng tracks attached to our Tank/Mech Team, but maybe I'm combining STX lane memories with the larger FTX training)

In the pre-Stryker era, we were organized into "company teams" when in the field. A company team consisted of two Armor companies, one Mech Infantry company, one Engineer company, one Cavalry Scout platoon, an ADA platoon (either Avengers or Linebackers, depending), and an NBC/Smoke platoon. The team could then subdivide even further, with two or three Armor platoons, an Infantry platoon, and a Engineer line platoon conducting independent missions. In that instance, the Engineer company commander retained direct control of the Assault & Obstacles platoon and deployed the CEVs and AVLBs wherever needed.

Oh, one last thing I always wanted to ask, can that M9 ACE go any slower!

Don't get me started! Whoever thought that giving an earthmover the skinny little M113 tracks was a good idea deserves a good beating. I swear that they spend more time pulling each other out of self-inflicted ruts than actually digging.

Thanks bro, awesome info!

If you could include any of those vehicles on the table for a tactical battle, for example conduct breaching ops, which would you choose?
I guess just a Sapper Platoon with MICLIC (4x M113A2, 1x MICLIC) and an AVLB?
Considering the tank platoons would have mine plows and rollers attached.

Nope! The PSG was usually riding in a HMMWV doing "beans & bullets" runs for the troops.

That's interesting, so he wasn't expected to lead the troops in battle with the LT? Totally different than a tank PSG who are expected to be the best tank commanders in the company as well handle all the logistics stuff for their platoons.

I swear that they spend more time pulling each other out of self-inflicted ruts than actually digging.

Dude, one of those things took all night, like 8 hours of non-stop digging switching crews, to dig me a half-ass fighting position. I finally told them to just leave 'cause with daylight the OPFOR BRDM's started poking around looking for soft targets.

my experience in 1AD

When were you in 1AD? PM if you want to stay secure.
I have so much respect for you Engineer guys just watching the crap they went through during training in the mud & snow, etc..

If you could include any of those vehicles on the table for a tactical battle, for example conduct breaching ops, which would you choose?
I guess just a Sapper Platoon with MICLIC (4x M113A2, 1x MICLIC) and an AVLB?
Considering the tank platoons would have mine plows and rollers attached.

For that time era, I think that would be a good selection, possibly including a CEV, depending on the METT-T.

That's interesting, so he wasn't expected to lead the troops in battle with the LT? Totally different than a tank PSG who are expected to be the best tank commanders in the company as well handle all the logistics stuff for their platoons.

I do know that the A&O PSG would sometimes mount up in one of the CEVs, but otherwise, they were relegated to logistics. Seemed like a waste of all that experience, but it's the Army -- it doesn't need to make sense!

Dude, one of those things took all night, like 8 hours of non-stop digging switching crews, to dig me a half-ass fighting position. I finally told them to just leave 'cause with daylight the OPFOR BRDM's started poking around looking for soft targets.

That was the other problem -- the M9s were really, really light. They couldn't stop more than shrapnel and spall, so if a BRDM (or really anything with a 12.7mm or higher) showed up, the ACEs would be up a certain creek without a paddle. That's why we never left them alone; usually, the CEVs or a line platoon would provide overwatch, and we'd plot TRPs for smoke missions from the supporting FA. If the OPFOR came over the horizon, we'd call the smoke mission and unass the AO before they managed to pick off all the digging assets (those SEE trucks were also incredibly thin-skinned).

Honestly, we were talking about whether the Army should ditch the M9 in favor of something like the armored D7 dozers the Israelis were using, but those were even slower than the ACEs.

When were you in 1AD? PM if you want to stay secure.
I have so much respect for you Engineer guys just watching the crap they went through during training in the mud & snow, etc.

Thanks! I was in 3BCT/1AD in '94, but not in Germany. I joined 3BCT when they redeployed to Ft. Lewis, and about a year later we reflagged to become 3BCT of the 2ID. That was handy, since I still had all my 2ID patches saved from my tour in Korea!