"90mm US/German Cold War HEAT Round?" Topic

Saw mention of a 90mm HEAT round made for the USA, and presumably also used by the West Germans, circa 1968, which quoted a 380mm – 400mm penetration.

It was mentioned in passing on an on-line, tank videogame discussion forum.

I've been looking on-line, and can't find any data to support those claims, so was wondering if anyone else is aware of this, and/or may have more info.

My M47, M48, and Jagdpanzer Kanone crews feel the need for more powerful ammo to help stave off the Communist hordes in Northern Europe.

I know the M348 HEAT round (circa 1950) had a 220mm – 250mm penetration, and the M431 HEAT round had a 300mm – 320mm penetration. I'm also aware there was supposedly a M431A1 round, but can't find any info on it, as far as a production date, or performance – presumably other than it was better.

So, can anyone confirm the above 380mm – 400mm pen. performance, for the later ammo?

The Soviet's D10 100mm gun for their T-54/55, had a 380mm pen. HEAT round from around 1958, according to data I've found, so I suspect a similar performance for an upgraded Western round is not beyond the realm of possibility, a decade later.

As a tank commander in the 1970s, we had the main round in the chamber as a SABOT which was a harden bullet to penetrate and cause spalling when it stopped. After you were out of SABOT, then you would use HEAT.
A HEAT round basically push a heavy gas stream into the tank. It's goal was actually to damage the inside and maybe explode ammunition. From watching how it worked, I would not be surprised if it got that high of a penetration.
The main problem and why a HEAT round was not primary was the geometry of the round's function. The contacting surface had to be straight up flat. Any angle in the contacting surface would lessen the impact. The jet stream would 'skip' along the surface and barely penetrate.
A good counter measure was to place simple sandbags or stowage on the side in order to divert the stream. For this reason, the HEAT round was a preferred round against a building or a fortification.

Thanks for the info, Rudy.

That is very useful.

Were you armed with 90mm guns, or 105mms?

I know the latter have a lot better chance of punching through Soviet/WP armor from the front, with various types of AP rounds.

However, for the 90mm guns, it appears in most cases there is little to no chance to actually penetrate the T-54/55s, and later vehicles, unless at very, very close ranges, with the different AP rounds, if they even can then, from the front angle.

That's why I presumed they might prefer to take a chance and use HEAT instead.

Then again, perhaps you just bite the bullet, and use firing and maneuvering to try to get a side shot, as you close the range.

I remember the M551 Sheridan as being a 152mm. i think the M60A1 was a 105mm in 1977 but I will have to recheck the gunnery manual I still have at home.
SABOT or AP and even a hit with a HEP round would cause damage and even destructive damage without even penetrating by causing spalling. I have seen those chunks in a tank be almost the size of a half of a baseball. A quarter size piece could maim or even kill a crewman.

Those are correct.

Not sure what vehicle you were serving in.

Both the HEAT round of the M551, and the M60A1/A2/A3 could easily penetrate the front of at least the mid-Cold War Soviet armor.

I'm guessing some AP rounds for the 105mm could too, at least at effective to short range.

Questions start to arise around the end of the Cold War period, with all the exotic armor combos, and reactive options.

Yea, I've read about the HESH/HEP rounds, but don't really understand what armor thicknesses they're effective against.

Yea, I've read about the HESH/HEP rounds, but don't really understand what armor thicknesses they're effective against.

Will you be attempting to model round type vs specific armor type?

We experimented with that but felt the amount of game data became too large, at least for what we were trying to do. You quickly end up with 2, 3, or even 4 AT values for a given weapon and at least 2 armor values for every facing on an AFV (KE and CE).

I like that idea for 1:1 games, but not so much for higher level games.

In our training HEP rounds were called for if firing at a soft target (trucks), infantry, hasty defenses, and light personnel carriers like BRDMs and BMPs. Sabot was saved for tanks as was HEAT. Assortment of what you carried could get unbalanced based on what events were taking place at your supply point.

Since we training with the forward supply points, a lot of confusion happened. In some cases the proper supply guys were not there. Just a heap of boxes and fuel drums. If you were last in line to get supplies then your mix could be wrong. For example all of the SABOT rounds may have been picked up by the crew of the tanks in front of you, leaving only HEAT and HEP rounds for you. So using HEP against tanks was planned for.

For the rules I'm using, it just has one armor rating, but there are different pen. ratings/results for different ammo types, e.g. AP, APDS, HEAT, HESH, HEP, HVAP, etc., etc..

Wow, surprised reloading of rounds wasn't a little more organized than that. Scary.

I'm planning on doing company level games, mainly, at 1:1, with perhaps up to a battalion for the attackers, depending upon how quick the rules are, and experience with them over time.

Will probably start with a platoon, or platoon+, vs. a company+, to see how that works out, first.