Charlie 12 | 10 Jul 2016 3:02 p.m. PST |
Why don't you go tell the three English Magazine's they're dead as dinosaurs. They seem to be doing fine to me. Just because you're too cheap to support an American zine doesn't mean others aren't Otto, you do realize the two are different markets? With different dynamics? And that there used to more than the three? Obviously not. And if there was such gawdawful demand for your 'precious' magazine in the US then why have so many gone belly up? Answer that one, bright guy (since you obviously have ALL the answers). Your idea is brilliant…. for the 1980's… And thoroughly irrelevant as buggy whips in the 2000's… Here's a BETTER idea (one in line with TODAY): Launch your magazine as an e-zine. Offer it for free and pay the production costs with advertising (with embeded hotlinks back to the advertisers' websites). Just like all the other e-zines have been doing for the last 10+ years, BTW…. As for your pretty little poem (by that well known poet Anonymous): Pure BS and irrelevant… |
Winston Smith | 10 Jul 2016 4:00 p.m. PST |
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Charlie 12 | 10 Jul 2016 4:04 p.m. PST |
Set 'em up, Barkeep! |
McLaddie | 10 Jul 2016 4:22 p.m. PST |
Otto: Well, We've agreed on other things in the past, which is why the earth didn't move this time… [Missed that event, did you? Maybe the tremors were only on the west coast…] Whether the magazine *should be* e-zine or paper is a question that HMGS should address … and has the money to find out which would be more popular. That is one of the benefits and roles a large hobby organization can provide. It doesn't have to be a debate about who is in the 1980s or 21st Century, or what the market wants. The hobby organization can find out--[gosh, even with a member survey… or provide both and see what happens.] Individual gamers [like Otto, Charlie or me] and businesses can't afford to do that. HMGS could. As a hobby organization, there is so many issues HMGS has failed to address that most all hobby groups of its size do, and it really shows when looking at the state of the hobby. |
Winston Smith | 10 Jul 2016 7:52 p.m. PST |
Well, to summarize, and actually answer the OP's question…… There is really nothing that HMGS could do to bring me back. I see no reward for the dollar. Its mind is made up about conventions being as they are, and all the non-convention things that they throw out for PR seem pointless to me. |
Morning Scout | 10 Jul 2016 7:58 p.m. PST |
Regionally accessible conventions would help. Virginia works for many so keep it in summer, Albany, NY area in the Fall would be great for the Northeast and some place say in South Carolina or Georgia in Winter would complete East Coast accessibility. Most would probably happy with that. Sometimes bigger is not better. Overall attendance numbers for the three cons is what should count for the organization not necessarily the size of any individual ones. It's a big country and HMGS should look to reach all members and allow all members the ability to participate. Let's face it, if you cannot get to a con what's the point of membership really. |
Ottoathome | 10 Jul 2016 8:32 p.m. PST |
Hey Charlie!! It's quite easy to have all the answers compared to those who have no answers at all. The Society of Daisy has been publishing "Saxe N' Violets" quarterly PRINT newsletter of 16 pages for over 11 years, now going on its' twelfth, with NO advertising, supported ONLY on its subscription and interest of its supporters. We have frequently even published whole GAMES In the magazine. It IS small, and it IS a lot of work, but it does exist and it CAN be done. The reason the other war game magazines have gone belly up, and I knew all of the editors and publishers, is only because most gamers are simply too lazy and too cheap to subscribe. Which brings us RIGHT BACK to the HMGS for the simple fact is that gamers are too lazy and too cheap to pay for the membership. The HMGS is a great Society and a Great vehicle for the propogation of the the hobby and it allows you to game and indulge in your hobby. The money you spend to support it is the cost of having it, and when you join, as I have said before what you get is the ability to spend and work even more to make your own hobby great. In a real sense the HMGS is no different than a fanzine or a small social club, and it takes dedication and hard work to do it, NOT a sense of entitlement or the "what do I get for my $. USD It's not up to the HMGS to do for you. Let's not forget that the HMGS was founded by people like Wally Simon, Pat Condray, and a host of others, (Ed Mohrmann was there and has the list,) who got together and put in their time, treasure, sweat and enthusiasm to make it. I wasn't one of them. No one ever paid them back and they did it for the love of the hobby. The organization can only be sustained by continual dedication, renewal and sacrifice. Charles XII you'll never be. |
Blutarski | 11 Jul 2016 4:29 a.m. PST |
Otto wrote "Let's not forget that the HMGS was founded by people like Wally Simon, Pat Condray, and a host of others … Ed Mohrmann, …" … And let us not forget Dick Bryant, Leo Cronin, Dave Waxtel, Joe Miceli. I have pointed this out before: if the Meeting in Wally's Basement was the foundation stone of HMGS, the stonemasons responsible for laying it came from all over the East Coast: 10 people were from the immediate MD/VA area local to Wally Simon's home; 7 people travelled long distances from MA/NY/NJ/PA to attend; 5 people from NC probably travelled nearly as far. Most of the attendees at that meeting originated from locales other than the MD/VA area. Claims that HMGS somehow "belongs" to one particular region run counter to the history of the organization. Only when that fact is understood and accepted will any real progress be made in resolving many of the issues before us. B |
Ottoathome | 11 Jul 2016 5:14 a.m. PST |
Dear Blutarski Correct in all points. But the locale of the convention and the places therein are not the central issue. The issue is that all of the volunteered and donated so much as have so many others who continue to do so. HMGS "belongs" to every member. I have in my files an old Membership list put out by the organization years ago. Amazing to see the cross-country support. But if it's everyone's organization then everyone should support it. |
Blutarski | 11 Jul 2016 5:58 a.m. PST |
Quite agree, Otto. The siting of the conventions is not the central issue. It is rather one symptom of the central issue, which in my opinion is the development over time of a certain insularity and provincialism within the leadership of HMGS. Broader participation is not solely a function of promoting volunteerism; it also requires that those presently holding the levers of power within the organization unlock the doors and accept the entry of "new blood". The unseemly melodrama that developed in connection with Dave Waxtel's run for a seat on the BoD troubled me considerably in that regard. In a broader context, the true mission of HMGS is not simply to service the immediate interests of its current paid membership. It is rather to promote the hobby of historical miniature wargaming in general. That is what is says on the tin, but I see precious little being done in that regard. And little or nothing along those lines will be accomplished until the discussion is widened beyond its currently restricted domain. Strictly my opinion, of course. B |
daler240D | 11 Jul 2016 7:29 a.m. PST |
I've been fascinated by this thread. I had never heard of HMGS before, but then again I have only been interested in this hobby for the last 6 years. I have to ask in this day and age (i.e. since the Internet) what is really the benefit or need of something like this? Does it really "promote the hobby"? How? ezines/magazine/newsletter is what most of us these days call a website or a blog. I can see the idea of conventions being useful, but do you really need a national organization with a BOD to do that? I find the pleas to "think of the hobby and not yourself" with your membership to be a bit too precious and self important. Seriously, the hobby is on better footing than that. |
Blutarski | 11 Jul 2016 8:18 a.m. PST |
Fair questions to ask, Daler. I myself started wargaming in the late 1960s. Things at that time were quite different than today many fewer gamers in a number of relatively isolated pockets; miniscule vendor base, zero public awareness footprint. The creation of HMGS was an effort among the more forward thinking persons in the hobby to address those issues. Perhaps the greatest contribution made by HMGS to the hobby has been its annual series of conventions, which have served as "agorae" for gamers from many different locales to gather, game, exchange interesting ideas and develop relationships. There is no doubt that the internet has made profound contributions in many of those areas, in many cases much more so than HMGS. But in other areas, such as providing opportunities for face-to-face gaming and meeting new individuals with mutual interests, I think that the traditional convention format remains valuable. I certainly look forward to seeing my "long distance" gaming friends and cronies on a regular basis, as I will be doing this week when I make the 7 hour drive to HCon. What should be the future for HMGS? My belief is a commitment to outreach. This hobby is rapidly aging and needs new blood. A good model to examine might be the way wargaming is presented in Great Britain, where wargaming seems to enjoy a much greater degree of awareness among the public. Strictly my opinion, of course. B |
TSD101 | 11 Jul 2016 10:11 a.m. PST |
say in South Carolina or Georgia in Winter would complete East Coast accessibility You guys already have HMGS South and Mid South branches. Isn't this enough? |
Poniatowski | 11 Jul 2016 11:52 a.m. PST |
Gotta love it….. I honestly tried not to post…. HMGS is now under some of the best leadership it has ever had. These people care…. As for the next… well.. what should I have thought… we are in America…. the "what's in it fer' me land". Really guys? You are probably the same folks who say Fraternities are for folks who have to buy their friends and have probably never cut a donation check in your life. Ever join the Audubon society or anything else? You really don't get a lot of "free stuff"… you get the satisfaction of helping out a cause…. why is it always about the free stuff? As a convention director, I try to do what is best for the organization as a whole… I want the organization to succeed and for the membership to be happy. Why is it always about dissenting comments of this person or that person is sooo bad….. My retort…. if you can run it better, step up! I would love to have some like minded volunteers at Fall-In! No, seriously…. what would really bring you back to HMGS? |
edmuel2000 | 11 Jul 2016 12:11 p.m. PST |
Well, Poniatowski, One thing that caused me to drop my membership was hearing any number of variations on the high handed insult, "If you don't volunteer, then your voice doesn't matter." Thanks for reminding me. Last time I checked, serving time wasn't a condition of membership. But that's okay. You just keep doing what you're doing. |
Winston Smith | 11 Jul 2016 1:29 p.m. PST |
You're right. What's in it for me? |
McLaddie | 11 Jul 2016 4:18 p.m. PST |
"What's in it for me?" Most all organizations are built around an answer to that question whether client or member / employee. It certainly is the one HMGS must answer to justify its existence: What's in it for the gamer? |
Khan | 11 Jul 2016 5:00 p.m. PST |
"The organization can only be sustained by continual dedication, renewal and sacrifice. " Enuff! It ain't an avocation, it ain't a vocation, it ain't a religious revelation. It's a hobby. It's only a hobby. And a niche hobby at that. I was gaming before HMGS was an inkling in the mind of Walt Simon and I expect I'll be gaming after HMGS dies of its own internal dysfunction. HMGS provides 1 thing only and that is it organizes 3 large conventions that most HMGS members seem to argue over ad infinitum. Otherwise HMGS promotes nothing but itself. It espouses nothing. It fosters nothing. It encourages nothing. |
wargamingUSA | 11 Jul 2016 6:19 p.m. PST |
I've been a member of HMGS-E and HMGS-MW for 25+ years; generally based on where I lived. I have let my membership expire once before and am debating whether to renew this time around. In the past, I have put on some games, served on the HMGS-MW BOD when things were in need of rescue or we would have had no chapter and no Little Wars, have offered some help and suggestions to the HMGS-E BOD when the opportunity presented itself, and have been on the business side of the hobby (although those products were represented at cons by other vendors). So, I think I have a decent frame of reference from which to answer the original question. If you'll allow me, I'll pose a couple questions first. Can HMGS-E (or any other HMGS chapter)clearly and succinctly define what it is the organization does, and the benefits it provides, for its members and potential members? Can you explain clearly and rationally why BOD decisions are made concerning convention locations or anything else the BOD acts upon? Can you clearly sum up your three and five year plans? If you had answers to the first three questions are they in-sync with the chapter's charter? What would bring me back into the fold? 1. Hire professional, proven event management and take the matter out of the hands of a well meaning volunteer staff that has proven to be an ineffective option… and provide free (comped or otherwise) lodging only to the HMGS convention manager and then demand he work like a dog and keep a smile n his face while doing so. 2. Don't ask for help or input and then disregard what is offered in return. 3. Recognize the Host is a dump regardless of what history or "beneficial arrangements" accrue to individuals. 4. Recognize H'con should be a flag ship con for the eastern half of the US and put it in a place where travel in and out is easy and attendance related costs are within reason – even if this means it rotates between two different venues every two years. 5. Ask whether three cons is too many and consider how HMGS-E might work collaboratively to support HMGS-MW, HMGS-S, or HMGS-GL to bolster one of their events in addition to running two "east" cons. Or maybe, god forbid, work to help folks in the northeast establish a really viable chapter that presents a great convention farther up the coastline. 6. Recognize vendors and the flea market both contribute to the vitality of the con and both have their place. The argument that flea market sales detract from vendors is a red herring because most guys realizing a buck in the flea market drop it in the vendors' area (if there are new and/or desirable products) or elsewhere at the con. Manage the flea market so repeat participants feel welcome and guys actually running a shadow business feel like they are unwelcome. I've seen guys who are frequently in the flea market but are clearly chatting with gaming buddies and just trying to sell-off stuff they and/or their club pals no longer want. This type of interaction is all part of the con and should be welcomed. 7. Any game master presenting two or more games for four or more people is provided with free admission. 8. Stop with all the 'ole boy and "I was in Wally's basement" nonsense… just contribute to, and enjoy, what is going on now. One old gamer's two cents worth. |
BrigadeGames | 11 Jul 2016 6:45 p.m. PST |
Cleo – Painting/Terrain competition – as I said – move it to the vendor hall and expand it. How about an "Iron Brush" competition in the middle of the gaming hall Saturday night? Take a few manufacturers and let us pick a figure from our range and have a timed competition between painters. Registration – every convention it is an issue. I have been to plenty of conventions around the country at major convention centers. Registration is never an issue, every organization running an event contracts with a registration company. That should tell us something. Since this is a pain point for attendees, fix/remove the pain point. For what it is worth, last year, based on my sales, should have been my last Historicon. I decided to give it one more go in VA. Fingers crossed that it is better this year. For a note of reference, HC 2008, the last one in Lancaster, was my best convention. I did double, yes DOUBLE, what I did last year. |
Winston Smith | 11 Jul 2016 7:08 p.m. PST |
Until someone can give me a rational explanation why I should have to stand in line for over an hour to shop… Don't tell me how hard volunteers work. Also tell me why you need to have me in a database, with chatty Kathy guys manning these computers. It's idiotic. Take my money and give me a badge. |
(Phil Dutre) | 12 Jul 2016 4:48 a.m. PST |
I've been reading this thread as an outsider. I live in Europe, so I have nothing to do with HMGS or any of the US conventions (although i did live in the US for quite a while). I never visited a US convention, but have visited many European ones. Honest things that I am wondering about not critique, but honest (and perhaps naοve :-)) questions: * Why as an organization do you need members to organize conventions? Aren't these two separate functions? * Is there anything for members except going to the cons? Newsletters? Memberships to all sorts of organizations (not only hobby societies) are declining in Europe (perhaps in the US as well?), because the main purpose of many was to provide hard to find information, which has become moot in the era of the intertubes. Memberships "out of sympathy" are becoming a relic of the past. * Why do you need a BOD? Conventions in EU (although all 1-day affairs) are usually organized by a handful of volunteers from the organizing club, with a lot of volunteers on the day itself (this even goes for the largest ones such as Salute or Crisis with several thousands of visitors, although they usually have some sort of legal framework for financial reasons, insurance, personal liability, etc). Does the financial implications of setting up a multi-day con (hotels etc.) warrant a more formal organization with a BOD? * Why should there be a big central con if everyone is complaining about the travel involved? Perhaps the hobby is currently better served by many smaller cons organized by local people? * If the "clientele" of HMGS is only moaning and complaining, isn't it time to call it day? There's no shame in saying that one had a good time, but now it's time for something else … |
daler240D | 12 Jul 2016 5:53 a.m. PST |
What Phil says. I go to CRISIS Antwerp yearly, I wait in a small line for maybe 5 minutes, hand someone at the door (a volunteer, I assume) 10 euros and I get a wrist band and I go inside. It's as easy as going to a club to hear a band. Pay the doorman and enter. You guys are describing something that is nothing other than Byzantine. Life is too short. |
zoneofcontrol | 12 Jul 2016 8:16 a.m. PST |
One bit of (meant to be constructive) criticism is an upgrade to the website and registration process. It is a little bit clunky and drawn out. There is even a thread elsewhere here on TMP stating that the info about attending vendors and layout maps have disappeared from the HMGS, Inc./Historicon website the week of the convention. |
Poniatowski | 12 Jul 2016 12:09 p.m. PST |
@TMPx3…..Wow… "HMGS provides 1 thing only and that is it organizes 3 large conventions that most HMGS members seem to argue over ad infinitum. Otherwise HMGS promotes nothing but itself. It espouses nothing. It fosters nothing. It encourages nothing." You got the first part right, but drop off heavily form there…. we offer free advertising to all of the other shows that care to want to send us something to put into our programs…. we used to do outreach to other shows to promote HMGS of course and Historical gaming, but that went the way of the dodo…. It espouses much….. HMGS promotes the hobby and other shows… I admit I am very poor in the advertising part. It fosters a lot…. team play, education, camaraderie, friendships.. I have friends I have met form games I like that are not played in my area and I see these great people at the shows…. And, it sure as hell encourages all of the above too! @Wargaming USA… VERY NICELY SAID SIR!!!! I would love to talk to you offline when we can discuss much! A lot of your sentiments are my own! there is always room for improvement. As far as making the shows "professional" with a hired staff.. the organization, as pointed out.. is a niche thing… having paid staff will bankrupt the organization.. the participants are already saying it is too much and that they do not get enough out of it to make it worthwhile…. It would be unsustainable…. too many cheapskates, yes, I said it. I am cheap too…. the only way I can afford this hobby is to buy and paint and sell on the side…. Anyway…. yes, I still stand behind the… put up or shut up…. mentality. Yes, there are many folks who turned the organization into a sideshow of benefits and perks for themselves…. I am NOT that person, that is like comparing me to a slave owner because I am white…. NOT GONNA happen. I do the best I can with what I have. I will step down any time I have been deemed to have failed the organization and make room for a better operator. I am not in it for the perks… I want HMGS to last! I am 45 now… well, almost 46 and I have been a member almost all of my adult life….. I got a lot form the organization as an attendee…. I now want to give something back… run a great show and hopefully everyone has a great time and thinks so also. <sigh> I am done ranting… some folks will never be happy and only live to complain. HMGS isn't perfect, but it is what we have and I will do my best to keep the cogs rolling forward. We are not going to change the world…. our prices are low and so are the dues…. Would you folks come if it were run like Origins or Gen-con….. at the same prices, etc…? |
Winston Smith | 12 Jul 2016 1:06 p.m. PST |
Going down the checklist. "Attack the messenger." Check "Ad hominem attacks." Check "Straw men." Check "Apples and oranges." Check "I am not appreciated." Check "Everything is the best in this best of all possible worlds." Check |
vagamer63 | 12 Jul 2016 1:19 p.m. PST |
Well, it's nice to have current members of the BOD willing to have a conversation on an open forum such as TMP! IT'S ABOUT TIME!!!! Why have the "Super Secret Cone of Silence", and HMGS conversations of any subject can only happen on the Approved Forum! It's a hobby, not a Government Program! Since you asked: 1. Slash Prices across the board for Membership, Attendees, and especially for the Vendors! 2. I'm not a big fan of letting "Only Shoppers", or GMs in for free, or in the former at a "Shoppers ONLY" price. A modest discount off the Base Price (which has been reduced as noted in #1 above) would be reasonable! Everyone should have some skin in the game! 3. There used to be a rule that GMs were responsible to ensure everyone playing in their game had a Badge! Of course over the years that has slipped into the "Never really happens anymore" category! It should be enforced! 4. Do away with the Computer check-in System! You want to keep a Data Base, especially one as arcane as a laptop that only runs DOS, do it on your time! Not mine! Just take my money, give me a badge, and let me be on my way! Thank you! I'd be happy to fill out a form and drop in a drop box during the weekend if you really need the info! 5. Why is Historicon the only show that offers a Military Discount? Does the appreciation of HMGS and it's Membership of our service only good ONCE a year? Really? I attended the very 1st Hisoricon, and just about everyone there after for about 26 years. The first 3 years I drove from Great Lakes, IL where I was stationed, and I recall it was held in a different location each of those first 3 years! The only time I missed any of the 3 conventions, once Cold Wars & Fall In were added, was when Uncle Sam deemed I was needed else where in the world, and that was only a few times! I worked as a Volunteer, a GM, and pulled time in the Vendor Hall with two different Vendors! So I've put in my time at all levels and enjoyed it all! Do many folks in the NE really feel "betrayed" by the move of Historicon 50 whole miles South of DC? To my mind, that's the kind of thinking that can destroy an organization, ANY organization! Granted, the then Members of the BOD did a very poor job in "selling" the move to the Membership, but the move wasn't made as a slight to anyone for any reason! If you feel differently more power to you! If Historicon is failing look to yourselves, and your lack of support for the real reasons behind the failure, and no other! Facts can be stubborn things as a wise man once said! Remember, it was the Members of the BOD at the time, who voted to engrave in stone that all 3 Conventions COULD NOT be located at the same Venue when Fall In was moved away from Gettysburg! (the recent troubles at The Host, was an example of WHY in that regard!) That's what gave them the juice, at the time, to take Historicon to the next level, and move it to Baltimore! We all know what happened then! In many ways history has repeated itself with the move to Fredericksburg hasn't it! Only this time 99.9% of the blame is on the members and attendees! So next time you feel the urge to Carp about it, check the mirror first, OK! I'm in the "I don't expect anything for my $5.00 USD" crowd you could say! Though I readily admit now that I've gotten up in years you've been to one show you've been to them all! All three of them seem to be exactly the same, only the location is different! There have been some good suggestions made in this discussion, and if some of them get adopted I expect they will improve things for the betterment of ALL! That's the real purpose of HMGS, right? To make things better for ALL of us even if we "personally" don't agree on any one item in particular! If it's not fun, you're not trying hard enough! Lastly, I'm not in favor of paying some professional to do something we can actually manage ourselves, IF we put our heads together and do it! |
Old Contemptibles | 12 Jul 2016 2:03 p.m. PST |
Reorganize the regional chapters. In fact do away with them and have one national club. Move the conventions around the country like is done with Origins and other conventions. This year Denver, next year Atlanta etc. Discounts from retailers and manufacturers. Membership includes subscription to a real honest to goodness magazine. Leadership stability. |
wargamingUSA | 12 Jul 2016 2:37 p.m. PST |
@Poniatowski – tell me how to reach you and we'll see about a talk. As an aside – a good gaming buddy heard HMGS-E needed volunteers for H'con this year… so he reached out. Guess what, he never heard back. On a positive note, there are some interesting ideas presented in this thread. |
TheKing30 | 12 Jul 2016 2:55 p.m. PST |
Do many folks in the NE really feel "betrayed" by the move of Historicon 50 whole miles South of DC? To my mind, that's the kind of thinking that can destroy an organization, ANY organization! Granted, the then Members of the BOD did a very poor job in "selling" the move to the Membership, but the move wasn't made as a slight to anyone for any reason! If you feel differently more power to you! If Historicon is failing look to yourselves, and your lack of support for the real reasons behind the failure, and no other! Facts can be stubborn things as a wise man once said! I agree with you up to a point. The facts can be stubborn things – and they were ignored. There were no (accurate) demographic studies done. There were no studies done to see how many current attendees would travel the extra distance. James Mattes was the only person I spoke with that had some sort of handle on the demographics and he got his information from the user community on TMP!! Also, I don't ever remember anyone defining the criteria for the success or failure of the Historicon move. In many ways history has repeated itself with the move to Fredericksburg hasn't it! Only this time 99.9% of the blame is on the members and attendees! So next time you feel the urge to Carp about it, check the mirror first, OK! If Historicon is failing (I don't honestly know because I'm not interested in attending down in VA), don't look at the membership. Look at the people that began the entire move project and go from there. |
vagamer63 | 12 Jul 2016 4:16 p.m. PST |
King30, I disagree with your premise the facts were ignored! To the contrary the then BOD had about 20+ years of facts in hand in order to make the decision! Based on the demographic info, at the time, of both Membership & Attendees the break down of location for those North of DC, and South of DC were within a couple of percentage points of one another! The FCC was chosen from the list of possible available sites the BOD was aware of at the time because it met the criteria of size, affordability, accessibility along the I 95 corridor, on site room availability, and parking. Along with some other lesser intangibles! It wasn't perfect, but they decided it was better then everything else looked at by some margin. Whether attendees would travel the extra distance wasn't really a consideration, though I guess they considered folks would complain about the drive yet still come as they had in the past! I mentioned Historicon as failing because it's well documented particularly here on TMP how flat attendance has been since the move to FCC, and within the last year or two the number of Vendors who have stopped attending, gone out of business, or have stated this year could be their last year in support of the show since the move! It isn't the fault of those who decided to make the move in light of the choices they had at the time. The folks who choose not to attend, particularly those in the North East, bare the greatest fault through their non participation. Not to mention the annual carp fest about it here on TMP doesn't really win anyone over to their point of view! If it will make you all happy to have Historicon back at the Host more power to you. Just be careful what you wish for, and don't be surprised by the result! |
Bowman | 12 Jul 2016 4:22 p.m. PST |
4. Do away with the Computer check-in System! You want to keep a Data Base, especially one as arcane as a laptop that only runs DOS, do it on your time! Not mine! Just take my money, give me a badge, and let me be on my way! Thank you! I'd be happy to fill out a form and drop in a drop box during the weekend if you really need the info! This is so true. When can we get rid of this nonsense? |
Blutarski | 12 Jul 2016 5:03 p.m. PST |
"50 whole miles south of DC" ….. LOL. That wins the trophy for disingenuousness. Does anyone really believe that is the reason why HCon attendance from the North has faltered so badly? The truth of the matter is this: the re-location from Lancaster to Fredericksburg added approximately 5 HOURS driving time for attendees coming from the NE. Efforts to repair this situation will never progress until the insularity, provincialism and sensitive egos are laid aside. The patient is clearly ill. It is a waste of time arguing about why the failed treatment seemed to make sense at the time it was implemented. Forget that. What must be done now is to find the necessary treatment program to cure the patient. Hopefully this fact will sink in at some point. Unfortunately, my expectations are not terribly sanguine in this respect mostly because I'm not sure everyone in this discussion necessarily desires that the patient be cured. Strictly my opinion, of course. B |
TheKing30 | 12 Jul 2016 5:11 p.m. PST |
King30, I disagree with your premise the facts were ignored! To the contrary the then BOD had about 20+ years of facts in hand in order to make the decision! Based on the demographic info, at the time, of both Membership & Attendees the break down of location for those North of DC, and South of DC were within a couple of percentage points of one another! Ok so what went wrong? The FCC was chosen from the list of possible available sites the BOD was aware of at the time because it met the criteria of size, affordability, accessibility along the I 95 corridor, on site room availability, and parking. Along with some other lesser intangibles!It wasn't perfect, but they decided it was better then everything else looked at by some margin. Whether attendees would travel the extra distance wasn't really a consideration, though I guess they considered folks would complain about the drive yet still come as they had in the past! Here's the problem. They (the BOD at the time of the move) assumed people would come where ever the convention was held. So either the data was wrong or someone never bothered to look at the facts. I mentioned Historicon as failing because it's well documented particularly here on TMP how flat attendance has been since the move to FCC, and within the last year or two the number of Vendors who have stopped attending, gone out of business, or have stated this year could be their last year in support of the show since the move!It isn't the fault of those who decided to make the move in light of the choices they had at the time. The folks who choose not to attend, particularly those in the North East, bare the greatest fault through their non participation. Not to mention the annual carp fest about it here on TMP doesn't really win anyone over to their point of view! So let me try and understand this…. The people in the NE aren't buying what's being sold. The customers aren't happy with the product and it's the customer's fault??? From a management standpoint, that should have been known before the move took place. If it will make you all happy to have Historicon back at the Host more power to you. Just be careful what you wish for, and don't be surprised by the result! Let's look at this differently. Say there is a business selling yellow widgets. They decide to paint the widgets green. People stop buying the widgets because they don't like green. Who's at fault? I'm not saying to do a witch hunt. I'm saying move the convention but understand what was done wrong, take it as a "lesson learned" and move forward. I really don't care where it's held. I guess as long as the dealers are willing to get kicked in the teeth and come back for more, then everything's OK. |
Khan | 12 Jul 2016 5:36 p.m. PST |
"It espouses much….. HMGS promotes the hobby and other shows… I admit I am very poor in the advertising part. It fosters a lot…. team play, education, camaraderie, friendships.. I have friends I have met form games I like that are not played in my area and I see these great people at the shows…." Ah! Poniatowski, you have drunk deep of the HMGS kool aid. |
TSD101 | 12 Jul 2016 6:12 p.m. PST |
It isn't the fault of those who decided to make the move in light of the choices they had at the time. The folks who choose not to attend, particularly those in the North East, bare the greatest fault through their non participation. Yes, lets blame the paying customers and not the product. What planet do you come from? |
historygamer | 12 Jul 2016 8:42 p.m. PST |
I think to drift back to the original topic, one thing is clear – for many, HMGS membership is tied to attendance, especially Hcon. But again, I question the value of simply having members who just join for the discount(s). If HMGS really wants to see how people value membership they should completely disconnect it from convention fee discounts. They may not like the results though. |
Winston Smith | 12 Jul 2016 11:07 p.m. PST |
What really frosts me here is the whole attitude that if I do not buy what has been decided by those wiser than myself, than I am to blame. It is up to ME to come around and realize that They are wise and I am not. And this is spouted by current management. And they wonder what is wrong. EDIT. By the way… I won't be there this weekend. Why? It's too far too drive. I am forced to admit by superior logic brought against me that it is to my shame that I am such a pussy. Sob. I'm sorry. Maybe I'll make it to Fall In where I'll be forced to buy a membership whether I want it or not. After all, it's the same price for non member as for renewal. You know, every time I mellow to the point where I might want to join again, some ham handed clown comes along and sneers at why I might have reservations. It's happened several times on this thread. Yes. Tell me why I should come back. |
snurl1 | 12 Jul 2016 11:34 p.m. PST |
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(Phil Dutre) | 12 Jul 2016 11:47 p.m. PST |
"I am a wargaming customer" or "I am a member of a wargaming community". Such differences in outlook are never easy to resolve in any hobby organization that thrives on volunteers. |
Ottoathome | 13 Jul 2016 4:04 a.m. PST |
As poor as my opinion of the BOD is, I will always support Cold Wars and Fall-In by putting on games and paying my way and doing what I can for the Society. Historicon is too far though. I saver my nine hour drives for going to Huzsah. |
Joes Shop | 13 Jul 2016 4:48 a.m. PST |
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Bowman | 13 Jul 2016 5:03 a.m. PST |
What really frosts me here is the whole attitude that if I do not buy what has been decided by those wiser than myself, than I am to blame. It is up to ME to come around and realize that They are wise and I am not. And this is spouted by current management. And they wonder what is wrong. Wow! Winston, you have an uncanny skill at inflating the simplest folk song into a full blown Wagnerian opera. |
holien | 13 Jul 2016 5:12 a.m. PST |
I am currently a lasped member of HMGS-E and I hope to rejoin if I can get over to Fall In (exchange rate and weather allowing). These threads always amaze me and it is pretty simple IMO. There is a club which you pay membership and you get the right to influence (by voting) or to be more active by volunteering, that is the way the club operates. (and many others). The club's main activity is organising 3 conventions to which members can go or those who are not members can come as well. The "problem" with the club is that it really only meets at these three conventions and the membership is spread across a wide area. UK Clubs tend to have members very close and they meet on a more regular basis outside the shows they run. So it is easier to canvas opinons and meet the needs of a group of people. Clubs in the UK work on the basis of sharing costs for venue hire and club terrain and this is a fairly easy sell as members see the benefits of their membership on a regular basis. For a club that meets only three times a year and is open to non members it is harder to see what benefit you get and people get confused at what is expected and what influence they should have. Part of the problem is people seem to think they have a right to influence it even though they are not members? The TMP forum is not the clubs forum and is more akin to a bar that some club members occasionally visit for a beer and a chat. Yet some in the bar who are not members seem to think they should visit more regularly and hold meetings in this bar? Then people in this bar (TMP forum) start name calling and telling the people that have been elected by other members that they are corrupt and have made poor decisions and are not doing the right thing for an organisation and that tehy don't listen, (some of these people are people that no longer belong to HMGS-E?) So the question is what will it take to expand the number of members? The simple answer IMO is very little as the benefit of being a member is being sat at the table to influence the clubs direction and to vote people to help run it. That is enough for me and I will rejoin again I hope later this year and I hope to visit the host again for more gaming. |
Ceterman | 13 Jul 2016 6:11 a.m. PST |
holien, Sorry to see you won't be at H-Con this year:( I was hoping you could play in my Blue Max game! Hope to see you next year. Peter |
edmuel2000 | 13 Jul 2016 6:38 a.m. PST |
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holien | 13 Jul 2016 7:09 a.m. PST |
Thanks C my grans 100th Birthday required me to be in the UK, it is her birthday today. Hope the game goes well and people have fun. |
Old Contemptibles | 13 Jul 2016 7:30 a.m. PST |
People making nine hour trips, six hour trips, etc. Most of you guys are so NE focused that you don't get it. You have to drop the East and just have HMGS. North Eastern Centric mind set is part of the problem. The membership has to increase. Grow or die. Be inclusive by moving the conventions around the country. But I am sure that will never happen. Don't want to move it out of driving distance for the board. |
Old Contemptibles | 13 Jul 2016 7:32 a.m. PST |
Speaking of the board. It's membership needs to be more diverse, more inclusive. You need people from other parts of the country and make it a national organization. The regional HMGS system isn't getting the job done. |
TSD101 | 13 Jul 2016 7:44 a.m. PST |
You have to drop the East and just have HMGS. I think thats part of the problem. You need people from other parts of the country and make it a national organization. The regional HMGS system isn't getting the job done. What evidence do you have to support this when other branches have their own successful cons? If HMGS went national and moved to holding the cons nationally and rotating cities the organization as a whole would be done. You would have to invest in some serious advertising to make up for all the numbers you'd lose from the con's "backyard" |